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Post by doctorwho on Apr 21, 2008 11:16:28 GMT -6
Now, you are going to have to reread my posts. I am talking only about school size, not class size. Here's a quote for you and the link. www.nwrel.org/scpd/sirs/10/c020.htmlFinally, whereas the research finds that small schools produce equal or superior achievement for students in general, the effects of small schools on the achievement of ethnic minority students and students of low socioeconomic status are the most positive of all (Berlin and Cienkus 1989; Eberts, Kehoe, and Stone 1982; Fowler 1995; Friedkin and Necochea 1988; Howley 1994, 1995; Huang and Howley 1993; Jewell 1989; Miller, Ellsworth, and Howell 1986; Rutter 1988; Stockard and Mayberry 1992). To put this a little differently, these researchers have found that large schools have a more negative impact on minority and low-SES students than on students in general. I will return to this point in a later discussion about school size as an equity issue. quick google will find researchers on the other end of the fence also: thee is no concensus and in fact the success at Lane Tech should demonstrate there is no one size fits all - so I am not ready to make any leap that opening MV is going to have any effect on test scores whatsoever. "First, though a cursory glance at the literature tends to support the benefits of smaller schools, closer examination reveals that there are a number of well-designed studies that tend to either find no effects of school size on student outcomes or, in some cases, suggest that bigger is in fact better (Durbin, 2001). "A second concern regarding the smaller schools movement is that research is still ongoing as to whether such schools actually produce better results. Some researchers such as Karen Irmsher (2004) and Ken Stevenson (1996, 2001) have suggested that size by itself is not the real issue. Instead, size is indicative of other factors that more directly impact on learning and teaching – such as the ability to interact on a personal basis with teachers, to have sufficient resources so students have cutting-edge instructional materials, to attract and retain good teachers, etc. Some studies have actually found that in terms of academic outcomes as well as teacher and student attitudes toward school, size has no bearing (White, 2005, Cauthern, 2004)" A third concern related to the small schools movement is connected to the current teacher shortage, especially in math and science. In larger schools there is greater efficiency in the use of teachers and their particular expertise." " |
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Post by doctorwho on Apr 21, 2008 11:18:05 GMT -6
Well I think I now know what the SB/SD's hidden agenda and the why with the quick time line for the 3rd high school. I am so glad that education is what is driving the SB/SD and not saving their a$$. WRONG-all they care about themselves and not the improving the progress of the lowest learners. I have the following questions: 1. Are we paying millions to expedite a project to save their butts from state takeover? 2. Did the boundaries for BB not shift the "right" kids? Reduction in class size is great, but we're talking about a much bigger issue here: The motivation for the rush; the complete reversal on BB; and the refusal to consider Macom (which would have in all likelihood kept the boundaries the same as BB). Is this the smoking gun? And it's clear some people don't want to talk about these things. modified for grammar! since our class sizes today are in line with everyone else I look at NV 23.0 and WV 22.1 - is anyone promising smaller class sizes ? I doubt it. |
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Post by jwh on Apr 21, 2008 11:19:29 GMT -6
Doc, I don't know what the major factor is. But I personally think school size is important when it comes to giving attention to these kids. Find me a big school somewhere that has the same demographics we do and is passing the NCLB. Some look at it as having the third HS will just mask the scores because the kids will be spread out and no help will be given. I disagree. I'm hoping that having smaller schools will help all of our kids and especially the ones who need more attention. Okay Sleepless - here's your comp ( and far exceeds ) - Lane tech in the City of Chicago - and no it is not a magnet school like Whitney Young - so this is an apples to apples comparison. Took me longer to type this than find one. 4248 students "THIS SCHOOLS HAS MET ALL OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR ADEQUATE YEARLY PROGRESS "% of students that exceed state goals 82.5% in a district that is 59.6 ! Total Enrollment 4284 White enrollment 29.2% Black enrollment 12.6% Hispanic enrollment 40.4% Asaian enroolment 12.1 % Native Am 0.2% Multi Racial 5.6% Low income 60.1% attendance rate 94.1% www.suntimes.com/pcds/html/schools/2007/cache/LANETECHNICALHIGHSCHOOLOF CHICAGO299.htmlDoc, Lane Tech is a college preporatory school, not quite an apples to apples with WV. |
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Post by Arch on Apr 21, 2008 11:19:59 GMT -6
More importantly, are class sizes increasing or decreasing at the ES level; where it all begins?
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Post by researching on Apr 21, 2008 11:20:02 GMT -6
Well I think I now know what the SB/SD's hidden agenda and the why with the quick time line for the 3rd high school. I am so glad that education is what is driving the SB/SD and not saving their a$$. WRONG-all they care about themselves and not the improving the progress of the lowest learners. I am right there with you Kimmie. I am going to pursue this with the State's Attorney, ISBE, local legislators, & anyone else who will listen. Unbelievable! Self-preservation seems to be the ONLY motivation for this SB / Admin. Our kids deserve more! |
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Post by snerdley on Apr 21, 2008 11:22:19 GMT -6
And let's not forget creating a big fight between the parents to keep everyone distracted.
Resign, MM. You are the one who needs to go.
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Post by concerned2 on Apr 21, 2008 11:25:22 GMT -6
So do we know if this has happened??? Wondering if any of the kids were given this option??
The Dash has also said that the time length of MS classes will be increased and the amount of periods decreased. So not as many electives. I am in agreement with this. I think the kids would benefit having more math and reading.
I disagree with the Dash's rationale that large class sizes are beneficial. I think first grade is soooo important since that is where they build their skills in reading.
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Post by steckmom on Apr 21, 2008 11:28:27 GMT -6
Haven't the tests already been taken that will show AYP for the next year under the NCLB?
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Post by jftb on Apr 21, 2008 11:29:06 GMT -6
Jumping back in.....Doc, you are absolutely right. School size alone certainly does not make or break achievement. As in almost anything in life, there is no one easy answer. There are many indicators that lead to increased achievement: socioeconomic background, parental involvement, teacher-child ratios, participation in sports and other activities, etc.
When I was talking before about freshman centers, one of the things that is so great for the kids attending these is the smaller scale. Sending our 14-year-olds into the larger mix of a big high school is pretty daunting. The creation of freshman centers is just one tool in the bag of tricks. They cannot work miracles, though. Other factors have to come into play as well.
Lane Tech is an amazing school. One of the reasons it works so well, though, IMO, is that the students who attend want to be there. They've worked hard to get that opportunity. There are neighborhood kids in addition to the magnet kids, but the environment is so positively charged, I think that rubs off a bit.
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Post by spicytuna on Apr 21, 2008 11:30:55 GMT -6
I have been away for awhile. However, this news compelled me to make a brief return visit.
Another very sad indictment of the School Administration and Board.
I see a common theme from our "leaders" who see their job as doing whatever it takes to silence those who put a negative mark on the perception of the District.
It appears that the official educational plan for improving performance of underachieving student performance is to import higher test scores into WVHS (to effectively "silence" those who need a voice the most!).
When the overall average scores improve by importing higher performance scores, the attention from the state on the performance of WVHS will diminish (with absolutely no need to focus attention to improving the scores of every single student in District 204).
Dr. D and Ms. Burkett....your new found dedication to social engineering will not automatically improve the education of the students in our district who are most in need, and I am starting to get what the problem is with locating the thrid high school in a logical place.
The boundaries that result from BB will require a focus from our school administration on EDUCATION as opposed to real estate transactions. And, as hard as it is to believe, this in fact may have been your worst mistake yet! The students who are underperforming in fact need real leadership to help develop their talents (as if they were really attending one of the best Districts in the State)!
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Post by jftb on Apr 21, 2008 11:31:35 GMT -6
.So do we know if this has happened??? Wondering if any of the kids were given this option?? The Dash has also said that the time length of MS classes will be increased and the amount of periods decreased. So not as many electives. I am in agreement with this. I think the kids would benefit having more math and reading. I disagree with the Dash's rationale that large class sizes are beneficial. I think first grade is soooo important since that is where they build their skills in reading Most of the research in education suggests that kids in the early primary grades (K, 1) should not be in classes over 20 students. I believe this is mandated in California. |
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Post by concerned2 on Apr 21, 2008 11:36:01 GMT -6
My son's 1st grade class by the end the of the school year had 30 students. I was so thankful he had a great teacher, but I could see that the students that struggled were having a very difficult time.
We did have an aide assigned to the classroom because of its size. It was not an ideal situation.
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Post by jftb on Apr 21, 2008 11:36:48 GMT -6
Haven't the tests already been taken that will show AYP for the next year under the NCLB? Yes. |
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Post by twhl on Apr 21, 2008 11:46:07 GMT -6
I have been away for awhile. However, this news compelled me to make a brief return visit. Another very sad indictment of the School Administration and Board. I see a common theme from our "leaders" who see their job as doing whatever it takes to silence those who put a negative mark on the perception of the District. It appears that the official educational plan for improving performance of underachieving student performance is to import higher test scores into WVHS (to effectively "silence" those who need a voice the most!). When the overall average scores improve by importing higher performance scores, the attention from the state on the performance of WVHS will diminish (with absolutely no need to focus attention to improving the scores of every single student in District 204). Dr. D and Ms. Burkett....your new found dedication to social engineering will not automatically improve the education of the students in our district who are most in need, and I am starting to get what the problem is with locating the third high school in a logical place. The boundaries that result from BB will require a focus from our school administration on EDUCATION as opposed to real estate transactions. And, as hard as it is to believe, this in fact may have been your worst mistake yet! The students who are underperforming in fact need real leadership to help develop their talents (as if they were really attending one of the best Districts in the State)! And the "biggest bang for the buck" for academic achievement - overall - and student population size was Fry/WE. Problem solved. That also played a major role in getting the ref to pass and was proven by the large "yes" voter turnout. I also think it is important to differentiate between class size and hallway size. It would appear there are class size issues at the elementary schools and some middles schools but hallway size / logistics at the middle school and high schools. |
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Post by jftb on Apr 21, 2008 11:50:13 GMT -6
Now, you are going to have to reread my posts. I am talking only about school size, not class size. Here's a quote for you and the link. www.nwrel.org/scpd/sirs/10/c020.htmlFinally, whereas the research finds that small schools produce equal or superior achievement for students in general, the effects of small schools on the achievement of ethnic minority students and students of low socioeconomic status are the most positive of all (Berlin and Cienkus 1989; Eberts, Kehoe, and Stone 1982; Fowler 1995; Friedkin and Necochea 1988; Howley 1994, 1995; Huang and Howley 1993; Jewell 1989; Miller, Ellsworth, and Howell 1986; Rutter 1988; Stockard and Mayberry 1992). To put this a little differently, these researchers have found that large schools have a more negative impact on minority and low-SES students than on students in general. I will return to this point in a later discussion about school size as an equity issue. quick google will find researchers on the other end of the fence also: thee is no concensus and in fact the success at Lane Tech should demonstrate there is no one size fits all - so I am not ready to make any leap that opening MV is going to have any effect on test scores whatsoever. "First, though a cursory glance at the literature tends to support the benefits of smaller schools, closer examination reveals that there are a number of well-designed studies that tend to either find no effects of school size on student outcomes or, in some cases, suggest that bigger is in fact better (Durbin, 2001). "A second concern regarding the smaller schools movement is that research is still ongoing as to whether such schools actually produce better results. Some researchers such as Karen Irmsher (2004) and Ken Stevenson (1996, 2001) have suggested that size by itself is not the real issue. Instead, size is indicative of other factors that more directly impact on learning and teaching – such as the ability to interact on a personal basis with teachers, to have sufficient resources so students have cutting-edge instructional materials, to attract and retain good teachers, etc. Some studies have actually found that in terms of academic outcomes as well as teacher and student attitudes toward school, size has no bearing (White, 2005, Cauthern, 2004)" A third concern related to the small schools movement is connected to the current teacher shortage, especially in math and science. In larger schools there is greater efficiency in the use of teachers and their particular expertise." " I taught in a CPS High School that was a product of the Small Schools Movement. Our school enrollment was about 800....mainly I think because it was the bottom of the barrel! You only went there if you couldn't get in anywhere else! What was nice about the size was that our administration really did know each and every student. We were able to "get on them" in a way that can't happen in a very large school. There were five small schools within the larger school-- a freshman academy and four career strands. Each small school had a dean and its own set of teachers--total enrollment of each was around 150-160 kids. It should have been ideal. On paper it looks like we should have been turning out Einstein after Einstein. My BIG classes had 18-20 kids. Smaller ones were around 12-14. That's where the other factors I spoke of earlier come into play. If you don't have parental involvement, if you don't have a home life that supports academic achievement, if you don't have a drive to "be somebody," if you don't have a coach who demands the best from you in all aspects of life, etc. etc., no small school alone can "fix" the problem. Doesn't hurt, though. After all that, though, our graduation rate was still less than 50%. |
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