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Post by d204mom on Jan 21, 2009 13:07:55 GMT -6
I don't think the school is bad for the interchange development, but I don't think it's that much better than a church. I think the site change was motivated by personal agendas on the SB. I think JC stood strong. It was what she wanted from the start. I think AT joined up right away, she only joined the board to protect Springbrook. CB was a slam dunk and JS thought his neighborhood was on board. MM got to thumb his nose at the BB attorneys, stroking his massive ego and he gets to let the folks with the fat checkbooks "fix" what he sees is lacking at WVHS. BG is outnumbered, wants to step down, doesn't want to fight anyone. Why do you think he never bothered to visit the site? because he cared so much? So now JC sets up a quid pro quo with Dash. Follow our lead on this and you will get our support for ADK etc. Done. Hey did anyone find out if there's any truth to the rumor that Daeschner gets a bonus if Metea opens in 2009? |
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Post by Arch on Jan 21, 2009 13:11:21 GMT -6
I don't think the school is bad for the interchange development, but I don't think it's that much better than a church. I think the site change was motivated by personal agendas on the SB. I think JC stood strong. It was what she wanted from the start. I think AT joined up right away, she only joined the board to protect Springbrook. CB was a slam dunk and JS thought his neighborhood was on board. MM got to thumb his nose at the BB attorneys, stroking his massive ego and he gets to let the folks with the fat checkbooks "fix" what he sees is lacking at WVHS. BG is outnumbered, wants to step down, doesn't want to fight anyone. Why do you think he never bothered to visit the site? because he cared so much? So now JC sets up a quid pro quo with Dash. Follow our lead on this and you will get our support for ADK etc. Done. Hey did anyone find out if there's any truth to the rumor that Daeschner gets a bonus if Metea opens in 2009? FOIA his contract? |
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Post by rj on Jan 23, 2009 18:30:38 GMT -6
The real issue is they will open the school and statistics say there will be students diagnosed with cancer while attending or soon after graduation. How will the district react when a parent says, the school site/HV liines caused this? Will the site selection report be admissable? Will someone argue that they knew of the risks and proceeded anyway? Is there really a risk? Last night I watched a show on National Geographic called Risk takers. This guy went with a power company crew that maintains high tension power lines. First off, these guys are out of their minds for doing this for a living. That being said, every day they climb the towers and work on or next to live 250k- 500k volt lines. Granted they are grounded, but being as they are working within inches of live wires, one would think if EMF was as bad as some claim, these guys wouldn't make it past their 30th birthday. Not trying to start a fight here, I know many think that everyone at MV is going to get brain cancer, just throwing this out there as food for thought. |
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Post by Arch on Jan 23, 2009 18:42:22 GMT -6
RJ,
HS aged kids have more at stake when mitosis happens because they are undergoing bodily changes during growth phases that are crucial to their transformation into adults....
Adults are mostly done 'growing' and are in the process of slowly dying...
I don't believe anyone here has ever said that everyone at MV is going to get brain cancer. If you can post a link to it, I would love to go back and re-read it. The point people have brought up and continue to bring up is that there is no definitive science that says there is no increased risk. The only way to eliminate the risk is not to be around them in the first place. The same goes for RR tracks and accidents as well as pipelines and accidents. If you're not near them, you're not at risk. If you are near them and within a certain distance if the 'sh!t hits the fan', you're going to have a really really bad day. Will it happen tomorrow? Dunno... Things can go along fine for a decade or two, or even three.. but the risk is there and things deteriorate with age and there are things called cumulative effects.... and unfortunately the jury is still out on exactly what the risks are and where the safe/risky line is drawn. They are risks that will be there every single day the school operates from day 1 into the future...
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Post by doctorwho on Jan 23, 2009 19:42:49 GMT -6
The real issue is they will open the school and statistics say there will be students diagnosed with cancer while attending or soon after graduation. How will the district react when a parent says, the school site/HV liines caused this? Will the site selection report be admissable? Will someone argue that they knew of the risks and proceeded anyway? Is there really a risk? Last night I watched a show on National Geographic called Risk takers. This guy went with a power company crew that maintains high tension power lines. First off, these guys are out of their minds for doing this for a living. That being said, every day they climb the towers and work on or next to live 250k- 500k volt lines. Granted they are grounded, but being as they are working within inches of live wires, one would think if EMF was as bad as some claim, these guys wouldn't make it past their 30th birthday. Not trying to start a fight here, I know many think that everyone at MV is going to get brain cancer, just throwing this out there as food for thought. rj - the show is called Risk Takers right ? These things seem to affect different groups and in clusters. If someone could disprove the connection they would have long ago- just as if someone had all the answers on the proof of connection they would. The fact of the mater is the medical community is split on this topic- with some very bright people on both sides of the argument. So the question is this -- do you think our HS kids should be exposed- should we be Risk Takers with their lives ? No one here I have read said every kid is going to come down with brain cancer or leukemia- but fact is in some locations these clusters exist..is it worth the risk ? |
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Post by rj on Jan 23, 2009 20:19:05 GMT -6
Doc, yes, the show is Risk takers. I quoted Rew; "The real issue is they will open the school and statistics say there will be students diagnosed with cancer while attending or soon after graduation." It would be best to ask him where these statistics came from. I am not advocating making the students Risk Takers, just trying to make sense of the conflicting views on EMF hazards that are out there. Arch, I understand the young being more at risk, but one would think that if a youngster in side a building is at risk hundreds of yards away from the EMF source, an adult working within feet of the source would be at greater risk, as the dosage would be significantly higher, regardless of brain development. Actually, I do question the brain development of anyone who scales a 200 foot tower and climbs out on a horizontal extension ladder that is hooked to the tower on one end and suspended by a rope from the electrical cable on the other to change an insulator. I am scared to death of heights, and thanks to the wonder of HD, I was getting queezy just watching it on TV.  (edited for italics error) |
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Post by Arch on Jan 23, 2009 20:27:14 GMT -6
RJ,
You know which risk I deem the most dangerous. I would agree with you on levels of EMF exposure of the child inside the building versus the one outside. Keep in mind that the people working the lines get paid appropriately for the risk....more so than the door hanger does who walks through your neighborhood hanging the WOW sales info on your doorknob. The biggest threat to the property, in my opinion, won't care where on the property you are or whether you are inside or outside. The catastrophic failure scenerio for it really is that bad.
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Jan 23, 2009 20:29:49 GMT -6
The district did a very good job covering emf earlier last year. As for the topic arch covers best, I would like more information.
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Post by Arch on Jan 23, 2009 20:40:32 GMT -6
The district did a very good job covering emf earlier last year. As for the topic arch covers best, I would like more information. From the numbers I can find, 36" pipeline replacement costs come out to about $4-5 million per mile. How much was the 'hurry up and open an incomplete school' cost? How much was the price quote from Kinder Morgan that the district got? |
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Post by rj on Jan 23, 2009 21:37:30 GMT -6
Arch, I know you have been diligent on finding the dangers of the pipelines, and many have learned much from it, including me.
I just don't see the EMF issue proven to the point of panic yet. There those that panic every time a new study (opinion) comes out claiming the next danger to society, that turns out to be nothing. Many of these doom and gloom findings are funded by grants and the recipients of said money need to show results, whether real or fabricated, or risk losing funding.
There are also groups that claim cell phones cause brain tumors, and others that say there is no danger. One would think with the millions of them in use for many years, if it really were an issue, there would be an epidemic of brain cancer victims.
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Jan 23, 2009 21:45:44 GMT -6
Arch,
I don't have the slightest idea or if any info has been given regarding KM. After the spring meeting regarding safety I was perfectly happy with what the safety guys presented.
It was not until you started spouting off at the mouth ranting and raving about pipelines and showing gruesome videos that I became concerned again. Now after seeing these rural lines blowing up more than never, I am a little more interested regarding the safety procedures.
It is not that I don't believe the experts just the mechanisms in which testing takes place. I am not sold that all the pipes need replacing but would definitely feel better if they were. But as you and I have discussed if this were even a possibility don't stop at the school property but continue south in the subdivisions and townhouses that are also affected.
Arch the video gets ones attention, more info on life of those pipes and testing (which seems to have some flaws that you have discussed earlier) is in order. What I am looking for is a real solid number on pipe life, testing procedures and any possible short comings regarding said testing. Maybe a clarification from KM would put some at ease. Pipe replacement I admit would put many more at ease.
Though even with the pipes replaced there will be those that will be uncomfortable with aspects of this property.
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Post by Arch on Jan 23, 2009 23:13:31 GMT -6
SSSM,
Pipes replaced gives us a working known. Right now, it's an unknown. Did KM tell us how much metal thickness is left from the original pipe when it was installed or what their testing model says would be the first failure? By the way, that modeling test was a focus of a seminar back in October where the PHMSA said that it could give results that are too conservative (saying it's 'safe' for a certain time period or set of circumstances when it really is not). Right now we are working with unknowns and the pipeline operator is under 0 obligation to tell us anything. A failure on the property with any of those three lines and we will lose the building, a sizable number of occupants and anyone unfortunate enough to be outside anywhere on the property. That's not doom and gloom that's fact. The PIR says so, the heat index charts for the volume of fuel in the lines says so. I sure as hell hope to God nothing ever happens because we can not afford a worst-case event there on that site. If the lines are not replaced, we are forever working with an unknown variable in a worst-case scenerio (integrity of the lines) and the testing and calculations to determine integrity is known and documented to be flawed in the wrong direction for safety. There have already been failures on recently tested pipes that checked out 'safe' that were younger than these pipes. Thank God they were not in areas that were too populated.
If our elected and paid officials don't 'get it'... well... there we are.
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Post by Arch on Jan 23, 2009 23:19:01 GMT -6
Arch, I know you have been diligent on finding the dangers of the pipelines, and many have learned much from it, including me. I just don't see the EMF issue proven to the point of panic yet. There those that panic every time a new study (opinion) comes out claiming the next danger to society, that turns out to be nothing. Many of these doom and gloom findings are funded by grants and the recipients of said money need to show results, whether real or fabricated, or risk losing funding. There are also groups that claim cell phones cause brain tumors, and others that say there is no danger. One would think with the millions of them in use for many years, if it really were an issue, there would be an epidemic of brain cancer victims. Again, it sounds like you are looking for a 100% effect rate to warrant a 'panic'. For some, even the elevated risk is enough to cause a parent to panic about it. To be fair, a lot of studies that say everything's fine, nothing to worry about... are funded by the industries in an attempt to stifle information that might upset their cash-flow and business but is still worthy of further study. *cough* smokes *cough* *cough* certain prescription drugs *cough* etc... |
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Post by doctorwho on Jan 23, 2009 23:37:40 GMT -6
Arch, I know you have been diligent on finding the dangers of the pipelines, and many have learned much from it, including me. I just don't see the EMF issue proven to the point of panic yet. There those that panic every time a new study (opinion) comes out claiming the next danger to society, that turns out to be nothing. Many of these doom and gloom findings are funded by grants and the recipients of said money need to show results, whether real or fabricated, or risk losing funding. There are also groups that claim cell phones cause brain tumors, and others that say there is no danger. One would think with the millions of them in use for many years, if it really were an issue, there would be an epidemic of brain cancer victims. Again, it's not about panic, it's about increased risk. Some people are gamblers, some are not. If there was definitive proof either way we would not be having this conversation at all- that's all I am saying. The case you make above is exactly what people said about second hand smoke 10+ years ago - how did that turn out ? I am not as willing to roll the dice.. I also don't sky dive, bungee jump or a number of other things that increase risk...personal choice That said, what is the greatest risk there - without question odds wise - the pipelines. I don't discount the EMF issue for many reasons, some personal.....but acknowledge it is a mixed bag of opinions. On the pipelines the issue is not vague at all. Look at some of what has occurred in the last year- a few days after the 'pig' that was touted as the watchdog for our safety, ran it's course and found nothing. With the pipelines it is not so much a matter if they pose a severe hazard - the only question is when ? 100 years from now -50 years from now -- 30 years from now - next week ? |
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Post by doctorwho on Jan 23, 2009 23:49:29 GMT -6
Arch, I don't have the slightest idea or if any info has been given regarding KM. After the spring meeting regarding safety I was perfectly happy with what the safety guys presented. It was not until you started spouting off at the mouth ranting and raving about pipelines and showing gruesome videos that I became concerned again. Now after seeing these rural lines blowing up more than never, I am a little more interested regarding the safety procedures. It is not that I don't believe the experts just the mechanisms in which testing takes place. I am not sold that all the pipes need replacing but would definitely feel better if they were. But as you and I have discussed if this were even a possibility don't stop at the school property but continue south in the subdivisions and townhouses that are also affected. Arch the video gets ones attention, more info on life of those pipes and testing (which seems to have some flaws that you have discussed earlier) is in order. What I am looking for is a real solid number on pipe life, testing procedures and any possible short comings regarding said testing. Maybe a clarification from KM would put some at ease. Pipe replacement I admit would put many more at ease. Though even with the pipes replaced there will be those that will be uncomfortable with aspects of this property. Though even with the pipes replaced there will be those that will be uncomfortable with aspects of this property. yes but reducing risk is the key. Every item reduced helps - why is land being remediated ? To reduce the risk. Why are airbags installed in cars ? Not to stop accidents, but reduce risk of serious injury - and the more a car has the larger the deduction in insurance cost. Why ? Because the risk has been reduced. We could find $10M to maybe $15M to expedite a school when the attendance projections are 2000 behind the original predictions for this year. This is a $150M investment for us as taxpayers - would we build the school without sprinkler systems in order to open it on time ? When was the last school fire here ? Again - reduce risk There's risk in getting up in the morning.. acknowledged. I love to swim in the ocean - and in younger days surf. There's sharks in that there ocean. Last year we were in Florida @ Vero beach and the food source for sharks had drifted way close to shore. We watched the gulls feed from it first - warning sign. I stayed out, as did my family. By noon 10 shark sitings- we saw one not 10 feet from shore- about a 12 foot bull shark. Down by Jupiter a person was attacked. Same ocean every day, but when the risk increased I decided it wise to avoid...shark attack - lightning strike-- odds also very slim -- but if you stay away from a sharks food source- or do not stand outside in an electrical storm your odds decrease drastically. the more often you choose to put yourself in harm's way - the greater risk something will happen |
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