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Post by lacy on Aug 27, 2009 18:59:58 GMT -6
It's no secret that I think moving the class of 2012 was wrong, it's no secret that I think splitting siblings was wrong, it's no secret that I'm annoyed at the MANY crazy exceptions that were granted and it's no secret that I think Waubonsie is way overcrowded. . OK casey, I am going to get a little frustrated here with you. You say "moving the Class of 2012 was wrong". Then you say "WV is way over-crowded." You do realize: these are mutually exclusive stances. These positions are inconsistent, if you ask me! If the Class of 2012 were not moved, per your desires, there would now be 650 more students at WV, making it more overcrowded ! One might get the idea that you were taking such stances because "it wouldn't affect your students" Instead, the even more extreme overcrowding would be "somebody else problems"; in this case, the students at WV. This is quite pertinent to this thread, I believe. If we are going to rise above and meet challenges to bring the best to all schools and to all students, we must show that we can think "big-picture". That means seeing not just the cons, but also the pros to decisions--past and future. Since I don't have a "dog in the hunt" so to speak anymore, I want to be sure that I don't inflame anything here. But I am curious. How many students are at the WVHS main campus today vs. how many students were at the WVHS main campus last school year? Is the school more overcrowded this year? Regardless of who left and who came, what is the situation today compared to last year? The district uprooted a slew of kids to accomplish their goals. And I have to say I am still scratching my head but hoping that everything works out for everyone. |
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Post by Arch on Aug 27, 2009 19:14:21 GMT -6
I think it should have been an opt-out to remain (same with siblings) but the parents shoulder the transportation responsibility after 2 years when the cross buses stop. I think the numbers would have been much more manageable at that point.
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Post by casey on Aug 27, 2009 19:41:54 GMT -6
OK casey, I am going to get a little frustrated here with you. You say "moving the Class of 2012 was wrong". Then you say "WV is way over-crowded." You do realize: these are mutually exclusive stances. These positions are inconsistent, if you ask me! If the Class of 2012 were not moved, per your desires, there would now be 650 more students at WV, making it more overcrowded ! One might get the idea that you were taking such stances because "it wouldn't affect your students" Instead, the even more extreme overcrowding would be "somebody else problems"; in this case, the students at WV. This is quite pertinent to this thread, I believe. If we are going to rise above and meet challenges to bring the best to all schools and to all students, we must show that we can think "big-picture". That means seeing not just the cons, but also the pros to decisions--past and future. You know what, gatormom, I agree with you. You are absolutely right that they are mutually exclusive stances (not moving 2012 and WV being way overcrowded). I guess I didn't think all the way through it before posting my comments. I honestly think the class of 2012 should have stayed where they were and opened MV with freshmen only. I have never wavered from that opinion. I guess selfishly, I'd rather deal with overcrowding than the disruption to students/families by transferring kids. I think that once a kid starts a school they should finish there and should not be forced to move. I have watched what it has done to my kid and my family and I hope others will not be forced to endure the situation. It is not an easy transition. Truth is though, my kid now has to deal with both. A move and a way more crowded school than she had at Neuqua. I feel like we've paid a big price. |
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Post by warriordiva on Aug 27, 2009 22:36:11 GMT -6
The silence is deafening. I'm still waiting to hear back from warriordiva. No word? Sorry I didn't jump on the board immediately to respond, I was at one of my kid's schools for curriculum night. I guess that somehow makes me defensive. I'm going to try to choose my words carefully so that you understand where I'm coming from on this. My issue with your statements is that I see more perception than reality in what you have stated. If you said " I think it's appalling that I have to go to the bathroom in a portapotty at the football games at WV." That to me is a real difference. Stating that they don't enforce the dress code is perception. You aren't at the school all day, you don't really know what's being enforced and what's not. I've been employed at both Neuqua and Waubonsie, and I've seen questionable dress at both of them. And that has nothing to do with the school itself, but the choices that students are making. So a teacher gave extra credit points for bringing in tissue. Does that mean she is a bad teacher? You don't really know, 1 week into school, what type of teacher she will turn out to be, and what she will require of the students throughout her class. Again - is that a realistic difference between the 2 schools? There are no teachers at Neuqua who give fluff extra credit? Are you really sure that they would never set up tables to eat on the rotunda at NVHS? You don't really know what they would do if their school was full to overflowing. As to Marchiando, I think most people have stated that they aren't big fans of hers, but she did send a letter out to the community before class started. The assistant principal has been sending daily communication to us, perhaps they have decided that he will be the communicator and not her. The curriculum in our district is the same from K-12 for all of it's schools. How a teacher chooses to teach that curriculum is up to him or her. Does WV have some great teachers, absolutely. Do they have some bad teachers, absolutely. Does NV have some great teachers, absolutely. Does NV have some bad teachers, absolutely. It is impossible for us to know exactly what goes in the classroom because we are not there. We get information from our children, but that is clouded by their perception of what happened in there, if they had a bad day, if they were distracted, if they like the subject, if they like the teacher. So that in itself is just a perception - not a reality. My neighbor's child was in the top 20 in the 2009 at WV and is attending Stanford. You don't get into Stanford unless you have learned something in your high school career, and learned it well. (Only one example of the many students in our district from both high schools who are attending fine universities - I just happen to mention her because she is my neighbor). Is the physical building of Neuqua nicer than Waubonsie - sure - it's also 20 years younger. That is a reality. I'm saying all of this, and I'm sure I will still get crucified for stating my beliefs. I'm sorry you had to leave NV. I'm sorry for anyone who has to leave a school they love for another school without moving. I too will call a spade a spade. I love WV and for a school that has had a lot of bad hands dealt to it, still manages to have great students, teachers and accomplishments. |
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Post by slp on Aug 28, 2009 5:30:29 GMT -6
OK casey, I am going to get a little frustrated here with you. You say "moving the Class of 2012 was wrong". Then you say "WV is way over-crowded." You do realize: these are mutually exclusive stances. These positions are inconsistent, if you ask me! If the Class of 2012 were not moved, per your desires, there would now be 650 more students at WV, making it more overcrowded ! One might get the idea that you were taking such stances because "it wouldn't affect your students" Instead, the even more extreme overcrowding would be "somebody else problems"; in this case, the students at WV. This is quite pertinent to this thread, I believe. If we are going to rise above and meet challenges to bring the best to all schools and to all students, we must show that we can think "big-picture". That means seeing not just the cons, but also the pros to decisions--past and future. You know what, gatormom, I agree with you. You are absolutely right that they are mutually exclusive stances (not moving 2012 and WV being way overcrowded). I guess I didn't think all the way through it before posting my comments. I honestly think the class of 2012 should have stayed where they were and opened MV with freshmen only. I have never wavered from that opinion. I guess selfishly, I'd rather deal with overcrowding than the disruption to students/families by transferring kids. I think that once a kid starts a school they should finish there and should not be forced to move. I have watched what it has done to my kid and my family and I hope others will not be forced to endure the situation. It is not an easy transition. Truth is though, my kid now has to deal with both. A move and a way more crowded school than she had at Neuqua. I feel like we've paid a big price. it was gatorDOG, not gatorMOM....just fyi although sometimes I think they are one in the same around my house! ;D |
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Post by doctorwho on Aug 28, 2009 5:32:57 GMT -6
The silence is deafening. I'm still waiting to hear back from warriordiva. No word? Sorry I didn't jump on the board immediately to respond, I was at on of my kid's schools for curriculum night. I guess that somehow makes me defensive. I'm going to try to choose my words carefully so that you understand where I'm coming from on this. My issue with your statements is that I see more perception than reality in what you have stated. If you said " I think it's appalling that I have to go to the bathroom in a portapotty at the football games at WV." That to me is a real difference. Stating that they don't enforce the dress code is perception. You aren't at the school all day, you don't really know what's being enforced and what's not. I've been employed at both Neuqua and Waubonsie, and I've seen questionable dress at both of them. And that has nothing to do with the school itself, but the choices that students are making. So a teacher gave extra credit points for bringing in tissue. Does that mean she is a bad teacher? You don't really know, 1 week into school, what type of teacher she will turn out to be, and what she will require of the students throughout her class. Again - is that a realistic difference between the 2 schools? There are no teachers at Neuqua who give fluff extra credit? Are you really sure that they would never set up tables to eat on the rotunda at NVHS? You don't really know what they would do if their school was full to overflowing. As to Marchiando, I think most people have stated that they aren't big fans of hers, but she did send a letter out to the community before class started. The assistant principal has been sending daily communication to us, perhaps they have decided that he will be the communicator and not her. The curriculum in our district is the same from K-12 for all of it's schools. How a teacher chooses to teach that curriculum is up to him or her. Does WV have some great teachers, absolutely. Do they have some bad teachers, absolutely. Does NV have some great teachers, absolutely. Does NV have some bad teachers, absolutely. It is impossible for us to know exactly what goes in the classroom because we are not there. We get information from our children, but that is clouded by their perception of what happened in there, if they had a bad day, if they were distracted, if they like the subject, if they like the teacher. So that in itself is just a perception - not a reality. My neighbor's child was in the top 20 in the 2009 at WV and is attending Stanford. You don't get into Stanford unless you have learned something in your high school career, and learned it well. (Only one example of the many students in our district from both high schools who are attending fine universities - I just happen to mention her because she is my neighbor). Is the physical building of Neuqua nicer than Waubonsie - sure - it's also 20 years younger. That is a reality. I'm saying all of this, and I'm sure I will still get crucified for stating my beliefs. I'm sorry you had to leave NV. I'm sorry for anyone who has to leave a school they love for another school without moving. I too will call a spade a spade. I love WV and for a school that has had a lot of bad hands dealt to it, still manages to have great students, teachers and accomplishments. "I love WV and for a school that has had a lot of bad hands dealt to it, still manages to have great students, teachers and accomplishments" Don't you ever wonder how some who give lip service to how they want WVHS to 'improve' are the same people delivering some of these bad hands ? I know I do, as I like you am a WVHS fan... |
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Post by travis on Aug 28, 2009 6:36:30 GMT -6
According to the district's website, there were 2789 students at the main WVHS campus last year (although the school report card would indicate fewer). The district projected 3150 students at WVHS this year.
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Post by momto4 on Aug 28, 2009 7:21:20 GMT -6
According to the district's website, there were 2789 students at the main WVHS campus last year (although the school report card would indicate fewer). The district projected 3150 students at WVHS this year. Last I heard WV is around 3200 this year. |
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Post by researching on Aug 28, 2009 8:29:03 GMT -6
Waubonsie is definitely overcrowded. To be absolutely fair, that hasn't fazed my child a bit. My child went from an overcrowded elementary, to the most overcrowded middle, to the most overcrowded high school. Same sh*t, different day. At this point I think my child would be confused if the halls weren't crowded. But on the bright side, Holiday shopping is a breeze when my child blazes the trail. My child is almost ninja like in the ability to navigate large crowds and tight spaces.
As for inequities between the schools, does ANYONE think there aren't any? Seriously?
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Post by slp on Aug 28, 2009 8:33:39 GMT -6
According to the district's website, there were 2789 students at the main WVHS campus last year (although the school report card would indicate fewer). The district projected 3150 students at WVHS this year. Last I heard WV is around 3200 this year. I was told this a.m. it is 3200 by an employee at WVHS. |
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Post by researching on Aug 28, 2009 8:37:39 GMT -6
I have been a Warrior parent now for six years. Have had a great experience (two years to go - I do think the school misses Mr Schmidt). I think an illustration of a difference is in this article - __________________________________________________ www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/sports/highschools/1737525,6_2_NA27_SOCCNTBK_S1-090827.article Waubonsie's field may not be ready in time Host hopes sod takes for Best of West tourney August 27, 2009By EDDIE BURNS For The Sun Since the thaw from last season's exceptionally cold winter, there have been drainage problems at Waubonsie Valley's varsity soccer stadium. It impacted the girls team to the point where they were limited to a handful of home matches in the spring and the problems have lingered into the boys season, forcing the team to play its first two home matches on its practice field -- which is shorter and narrower than a normal varsity soccer field. Now, the varsity field's condition might affect the Best of the West Tournament because the Warriors are replacing Naperville Central as one of the host sites in the tournament due to construction at Central. "We had a quagmire out there last spring," Waubonsie athletic director Mike Rogowski said. So plans were made to improve the drainage during the summer, and the areas torn up were seeded. Some of the seed, however, didn't take and left the field with bare spots. Earlier this week sod was placed over the problematic areas, but the question now becomes whether the sod takes by Tuesday's scheduled Best of the West matches. "We're keeping our fingers crossed," said Rogowski, who hopes the rainy weather allows the sod to take. Waubonsie boys soccer coach Angelo DiBernardo admitted the conditions of playing on a much smaller field against Neuqua Valley were not ideal, but since it was Waubonsie's home match, all efforts were made to play it in Aurora. "Playing on a small field doesn't help anybody," he said. "It didn't help us, it didn't help (Neuqua). It hurts the game as a whole. But under the circumstances, with our main field not playable right now, we have no choice. It was our home match and our kids wanted to play in our home surroundings, so we played here." The Warriors will be forced to return to the practice field at least one more time when they host Benet at 4:30 p.m. Friday. ___________________________________________________ It is so unfortunate that the district chose to install a state of the art turf field at MV and not at the other HS's also. To add insult to injury, the gold campus was closed along with all the freshman practice / competition fields and squeezed into the existing space at WV. I bet NV's football team is not using the outfield of the softball field for practice space. I thought the exact same thing when I read that article! I am so glad you posted it! Ridiculous! They had PLENTY of time to rectify the situation. I mean, look at how fast they built a new high school with a new state of the art stadium. I have a question for all WV alums... does WV have a good sound system in the main gym? I was told that the cheerleaders and dancers had to use a boom box with a mic to play their performance music for the Soph. Orientation. I think it might be time for the WV families to organize to force some fairness from this district. The list I have of the tangible inequities is getting longer each day. |
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Post by Arch on Aug 28, 2009 9:00:41 GMT -6
I'm not sure what system they used for the Fine Arts Festival, but when the band played we never had trouble hearing what was being said. On a different school note, I found the MV sound system to be absolutely underpowered at orientation. It looked like they just had little bookshelf JBL speakers stuffed up in the rafters. Either they are horribly underpowered or whomever was working the sound system had a lot to learn about microphone input levels, equalization and output power... Everyone sounded very faint and muffled.
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Post by doctorwho on Aug 28, 2009 9:06:54 GMT -6
I have been a Warrior parent now for six years. Have had a great experience (two years to go - I do think the school misses Mr Schmidt). I think an illustration of a difference is in this article - __________________________________________________ www.suburbanchicagonews.com/napervillesun/sports/highschools/1737525,6_2_NA27_SOCCNTBK_S1-090827.article Waubonsie's field may not be ready in time Host hopes sod takes for Best of West tourney August 27, 2009By EDDIE BURNS For The Sun Since the thaw from last season's exceptionally cold winter, there have been drainage problems at Waubonsie Valley's varsity soccer stadium. It impacted the girls team to the point where they were limited to a handful of home matches in the spring and the problems have lingered into the boys season, forcing the team to play its first two home matches on its practice field -- which is shorter and narrower than a normal varsity soccer field. Now, the varsity field's condition might affect the Best of the West Tournament because the Warriors are replacing Naperville Central as one of the host sites in the tournament due to construction at Central. "We had a quagmire out there last spring," Waubonsie athletic director Mike Rogowski said. So plans were made to improve the drainage during the summer, and the areas torn up were seeded. Some of the seed, however, didn't take and left the field with bare spots. Earlier this week sod was placed over the problematic areas, but the question now becomes whether the sod takes by Tuesday's scheduled Best of the West matches. "We're keeping our fingers crossed," said Rogowski, who hopes the rainy weather allows the sod to take. Waubonsie boys soccer coach Angelo DiBernardo admitted the conditions of playing on a much smaller field against Neuqua Valley were not ideal, but since it was Waubonsie's home match, all efforts were made to play it in Aurora. "Playing on a small field doesn't help anybody," he said. "It didn't help us, it didn't help (Neuqua). It hurts the game as a whole. But under the circumstances, with our main field not playable right now, we have no choice. It was our home match and our kids wanted to play in our home surroundings, so we played here." The Warriors will be forced to return to the practice field at least one more time when they host Benet at 4:30 p.m. Friday. ___________________________________________________ It is so unfortunate that the district chose to install a state of the art turf field at MV and not at the other HS's also. To add insult to injury, the gold campus was closed along with all the freshman practice / competition fields and squeezed into the existing space at WV. I bet NV's football team is not using the outfield of the softball field for practice space. I thought the exact same thing when I read that article! I am so glad you posted it! Ridiculous! They had PLENTY of time to rectify the situation. I mean, look at how fast they built a new high school with a new state of the art stadium. I have a question for all WV alums... does WV have a good sound system in the main gym? I was told that the cheerleaders and dancers had to use a boom box with a mic to play their performance music for the Soph. Orientation. I think it might be time for the WV families to organize to force some fairness from this district. The list I have of the tangible inequities is getting longer each day. hang onto that list- you likely will hear it again when the SD closes WVHS in a few years as the reasons why. That, will be a sad day. |
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Post by warriordiva on Aug 28, 2009 9:31:01 GMT -6
Waubonsie is definitely overcrowded. To be absolutely fair, that hasn't fazed my child a bit. My child went from an overcrowded elementary, to the most overcrowded middle, to the most overcrowded high school. Same sh*t, different day. At this point I think my child would be confused if the halls weren't crowded. But on the bright side, Holiday shopping is a breeze when my child blazes the trail. My child is almost ninja like in the ability to navigate large crowds and tight spaces. As for inequities between the schools, does ANYONE think there aren't any? Seriously? I don't think there aren't any, I just want to make sure we are talking about actual inequities. And unfortunately, I agree with those who say we will say goodbye to a great school in a few years because it isn't "needed" anymore. On a different note, I had an opportunity to be inside MVHS yesterday. I'm not real sure it's any "prettier" on the inside than the outside. I really thought the ceiling wasn't finished, but I've come to the conclusion that it was designed for you to see the pipes etc. I still think it looks a little too 1950 industrial for my tastes. I guess I'll learn to love it when my daughter has to matriculate there when WV gets shuttered. |
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Post by casey on Aug 28, 2009 11:18:26 GMT -6
The silence is deafening. I'm still waiting to hear back from warriordiva. No word? Sorry I didn't jump on the board immediately to respond, I was at one of my kid's schools for curriculum night. I guess that somehow makes me defensive. I'm going to try to choose my words carefully so that you understand where I'm coming from on this. My issue with your statements is that I see more perception than reality in what you have stated. If you said " I think it's appalling that I have to go to the bathroom in a portapotty at the football games at WV." That to me is a real difference. Stating that they don't enforce the dress code is perception. You aren't at the school all day, you don't really know what's being enforced and what's not. I've been employed at both Neuqua and Waubonsie, and I've seen questionable dress at both of them. And that has nothing to do with the school itself, but the choices that students are making. So a teacher gave extra credit points for bringing in tissue. Does that mean she is a bad teacher? You don't really know, 1 week into school, what type of teacher she will turn out to be, and what she will require of the students throughout her class. Again - is that a realistic difference between the 2 schools? There are no teachers at Neuqua who give fluff extra credit? Are you really sure that they would never set up tables to eat on the rotunda at NVHS? You don't really know what they would do if their school was full to overflowing. As to Marchiando, I think most people have stated that they aren't big fans of hers, but she did send a letter out to the community before class started. The assistant principal has been sending daily communication to us, perhaps they have decided that he will be the communicator and not her. The curriculum in our district is the same from K-12 for all of it's schools. How a teacher chooses to teach that curriculum is up to him or her. Does WV have some great teachers, absolutely. Do they have some bad teachers, absolutely. Does NV have some great teachers, absolutely. Does NV have some bad teachers, absolutely. It is impossible for us to know exactly what goes in the classroom because we are not there. We get information from our children, but that is clouded by their perception of what happened in there, if they had a bad day, if they were distracted, if they like the subject, if they like the teacher. So that in itself is just a perception - not a reality. My neighbor's child was in the top 20 in the 2009 at WV and is attending Stanford. You don't get into Stanford unless you have learned something in your high school career, and learned it well. (Only one example of the many students in our district from both high schools who are attending fine universities - I just happen to mention her because she is my neighbor). Is the physical building of Neuqua nicer than Waubonsie - sure - it's also 20 years younger. That is a reality. I'm saying all of this, and I'm sure I will still get crucified for stating my beliefs. I'm sorry you had to leave NV. I'm sorry for anyone who has to leave a school they love for another school without moving. I too will call a spade a spade. I love WV and for a school that has had a lot of bad hands dealt to it, still manages to have great students, teachers and accomplishments. Thanks warriordiva for getting back to me. I appreciate your insight and it's clear how strong your passion is for Waubonsie (mine used to be like that for NV). Maybe some day I will share that passion for WV but right now I'm still torn between two schools and it's a hard position. You are right about perception vs. reality but unfortunately, perception often is reality or at least that's what people choose to believe - you know the whole seeing is believing. You're right I do not know about dress code violations as I'm not there. I'm basing my comments on my daughter's comments. When she tells me that the girls can wear those little soffees (you know the small cheerleader shorts - my husband calls them "butt shorts"  ) and get away with it at Waubonsie, I'm shocked. I do know for a fact that you couldn't wear those at Neuqua. You would have been escorted from the classroom (kids were taken out of the classroom all the time for dress code violations). As far as skinny tanks, I know the rule is two fingers but my daughter has worn some tanks this year that wouldn't have passed at NV (she first covered them up with a hoodie but then learned she didn't need to do so as everyone else was wearing them like that and getting away with it). Is the dress code enforced differently at NV or WV? Is is perception or reality? Who can say? As far as the tissue box extra credit....I never said that makes a teacher bad. In fact, the two classes she was offered extra credit for bringing them in, are her favorite teachers. I understand why the teachers offered the extra credit option (who wants to buy all that tissue?) but I'm just saying it did not happen last year at the NV Gold campus. Again, my daughter earned all of one point EC last year and that was for a fairly lengthy paper. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the Kleenex extra credit (I honestly don't care as I think EC should be up to the individual teacher) I'm simply reporting what happened. As far as the cafeteria tables being set up at NV to deal with overcrowding, you're right, no one will ever know if they'd do the same thing. However, reality is the tables are at WV's entryway and not NV's. As a side note, why doesn't WV allow Option during lunch (this was an opportunity during lunch for kids at NV to leave the cafe and visit the cafeteria or a specific class for extra help). This Option helped alleviate the overcrowding in the cafeteria and allowed kids to get help if they needed it. I don't know for sure that WV doesn't offer it but I have not heard anyone mention it. Does anyone know? Lastly, the whole principal communication thing. I would definitely say that's reality and not perception. Bob McBride sent out a lengthy newsletter, Kathy Marchiando did not. I'm not sure what the issue is? I'm stating fact but I'd think there should be some continuity between the two buildings. We're in agreement on the curriculum. I don't doubt for a minute that curriculum and choices are the same at all the schools. I agree with your comments about the physical building. As you pointed out there's no question NV is a newer, nicer physical building. I'm smart enough to realize that the attractiveness of a building isn't what makes a school. I want to finish up by saying how much I appreciate your comment about how sorry you feel for anyone leaving a school that they loved without moving. It's nice to hear when someone acknowledges what some of us have gone through. Sounds stupid, but it's nice to hear that someone "gets it". Thanks. Personally, I would love to hear the SB stand up and publicly offer their sympathy to those of us in this position. It wouldn't change a thing but it'd sure be nice to validated. What would be so hard for someone to stand up and say "we're sorry that some of you were moved from a school you loved. We're sorry that this is so hard for many of you. We're sorry that his whole 3rd high school situation has been bungled from the start".... In addition, I'd love to hear KB in particular, stand up and tell the kids from the class of 2012 "we're sorry for what you've gone through. We're sorry that things didn't go as we planned. We're sorry that some of you have been moved away from your friends to a new school. We're sorry...." I know some of the SB members read this board (or at least have others report to them what they've seen), please consider offering a public apology. I think it could go a long way. Finally, I want to point out that my whole reason for this thread is not to complain about Waubonsie. It is simply to point out what I see as some of the differences. Judging by the pms that I've gotten, there are many that appreciate it. We can't just sit with our heads in the sand and act as if things are fine. The SB talked about all the change that would take place at WV this year, well you need active persons to bring about that change. I don't want to be judged because I will be working to bring equity to Waubonsie. The inequity has been taking place for too long. |
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) and get away with it at Waubonsie, I'm shocked. I do know for a fact that you couldn't wear those at Neuqua. You would have been escorted from the classroom (kids were taken out of the classroom all the time for dress code violations). As far as skinny tanks, I know the rule is two fingers but my daughter has worn some tanks this year that wouldn't have passed at NV (she first covered them up with a hoodie but then learned she didn't need to do so as everyone else was wearing them like that and getting away with it). Is the dress code enforced differently at NV or WV? Is is perception or reality? Who can say?