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Post by Arch on Mar 14, 2010 19:25:46 GMT -6
The TRS has had to have billions dumped into it in the past decade via bond sales by the state of IL...
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Mar 14, 2010 19:29:26 GMT -6
Eagledad,
How about the administration of our district take a substantial pay cut as to pave the way for the future teacher contracts that our district faces. The idea of "freezing wages" is not nearly enough.
Negotiations would seem to be simpler if it was noted that ALL 204 employees were taking "one for the team". There are many organizations in the private sector that have cut wages, perks and benefits substantially in order to keep as many employees working as possible.
We are nowhere near done with budget shortfalls... Just focus on the revenue side of the budget and it is obvious that we have major concerns as a district moving forward.
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Post by steckdad on Mar 14, 2010 19:55:35 GMT -6
Eagledad, How about the administration of our district take a substantial pay cut as to pave the way for the future teacher contracts that our district faces. The idea of "freezing wages" is not nearly enough. Negotiations would seem to be simpler if it was noted that ALL 204 employees were taking "one for the team". There are many organizations in the private sector that have cut wages, perks and benefits substantially in order to keep as many employees working as possible. We are nowhere near done with budget shortfalls... Just focus on the revenue side of the budget and it is obvious that we have major concerns as a district moving forward. The problem IMO is that companies (and school districts) have no middle ground. you are 40 hours full time full benefits or nothing. Municipalities give lifelong jobs and pensions when two part time people could fit the bill. And in this climate you will get 20 interviews to fill one of those PT positions. The other downside is when it is time to tighten the belt, there is no flexibility either. You can't take somebody from 30 hours down to 20 to trim the fat. It is either all or nothing. sorry here is your pink slip. Most would probably like the option of cutting their hours than losing their job. |
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 14, 2010 20:09:48 GMT -6
Eagledad, How about the administration of our district take a substantial pay cut as to pave the way for the future teacher contracts that our district faces. The idea of "freezing wages" is not nearly enough. Negotiations would seem to be simpler if it was noted that ALL 204 employees were taking "one for the team". There are many organizations in the private sector that have cut wages, perks and benefits substantially in order to keep as many employees working as possible. We are nowhere near done with budget shortfalls... Just focus on the revenue side of the budget and it is obvious that we have major concerns as a district moving forward. The problem IMO is that companies (and school districts) have no middle ground. you are 40 hours full time full benefits or nothing. Municipalities give lifelong jobs and pensions when two part time people could fit the bill. And in this climate you will get 20 interviews to fill one of those PT positions. The other downside is when it is time to tighten the belt, there is no flexibility either. You can't take somebody from 30 hours down to 20 to trim the fat. It is either all or nothing. sorry here is your pink slip. Most would probably like the option of cutting their hours than losing their job. not so sure about the last part -- wasn't it Plainfield ( or was it in Kane County I have to find the article) - the teachers union was asked to pare back the 6% increase they were due next year to save a 10% cut in the workforce..guess what they voted for ? Goodbye 10% of the people. Much like some private colleges that were able to 'un tenure' teachers and have them all re earn it...until the unions are really willing to negotiate, and when pensions /benefots etc . come back to match the real world...the financial problems will continue to grow. |
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Mar 14, 2010 20:10:53 GMT -6
Steckdad,
I would agree that many would prefer to take a hit for the team to keep the team intact.
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 14, 2010 20:46:22 GMT -6
Steckdad, I would agree that many would prefer to take a hit for the team to keep the team intact. one would like to think so..however I'll bet the 11 teachers going to be gone in Kaneland thought so too www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=365591"The district asked the union in November to consider renegotiating its contract. Teachers are due to receive a 5.6 percent increase in base pay this fall, in the last year of a three-year contract.But teachers voted "no" in February. The union's president said they were concerned about Kaneland's pay compared to other districts, among other things. Union members also did not like that the district announced its request to the public before announcing it to the union. The news release this week noted all further communication about the matter will be made jointly by the union and the district.
Under the cuts the school board approved Monday, the equivalent of 11 full-time teaching positions will be lost in the fall.
" |
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Post by Arch on Mar 14, 2010 21:00:22 GMT -6
I'm still of the opinion that if you have to let anyone go, let them all go.
Then, only hire back the ones who can demonstrate they will truly make a positive difference in the kids' lives. Weed out the burnt out ones who have been there too long coasting through on tenure and recycled (and in a few cases plagiarized) lesson plans the past god-knows how many years.
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Mar 14, 2010 21:19:46 GMT -6
Doc,
As you know I like to follow up with a story, a fable as it is.
Last year at this time there was a lot of talk of the local automotive mechanics union going out on strike. After listening to the concerns a number of mechanics had, I issued my "two cents" worth of advise.
The main concern that many of the mechanics had was regarding the idea of having to pay for health care costs. For some this was the first opportunity these employees had to do so.
My question to these union members was straight forward, I asked if any of them knew what the actual health care costs for themselves and their families was. All of these mechanics acknowledged that they had not looked into what the employer was paying for these costs.
At this point I let them know that I did not know the costs, but did inform them that my family's average health care costs including out of pocket expenses along with insurance premiums averaged $1200/ month. I also informed these union workers that on rough years our total out of pocket has been as high as $19,000 as our deductibles are $2,000 per person / $5,000 for the family.
There was a long silence, I was the first to ask, how much the employer was asking each union employee to come up with. The amount was minimal, my response was that maybe your employer was giving the union workers a taste of "just how high" these costs have become.
As I left the service department I informed these union employees to look closely at the whole picture, the contract was signed in June or July.
Fast forward to today... Doc the contracts you cite are instances where the union workers have been asked to reopen an already signed contract. The situation I cite has to do with laying the ground work for upcoming contracts.
My contention is straight forward, have the administration take the financial sacrifice first. How does one bargain in good faith when the "Financial PAIN" is not evenly distributed.
As I review the revenue side of our districts budget it seems obvious that this "financial pain" is more than a passing breeze. I feel that with full disclosure to both the valued employees of our district along with the taxpayers, we will prevail and be stronger in the long term.
The key is to get everyone on the same page and stop wasting precious energy running in circles.
The time of identifying the concerns are past, it is time to execute a plausible long term plan.
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 14, 2010 21:31:10 GMT -6
Doc, As you know I like to follow up with a story, a fable as it is. Last year at this time there was a lot of talk of the local automotive mechanics union going out on strike. After listening to the concerns a number of mechanics had, I issued my "two cents" worth of advise. The main concern that many of the mechanics had was regarding the idea of having to pay for health care costs. For some this was the first opportunity these employees had to do so. My question to these union members was straight forward, I asked if any of them knew what the actual health care costs for themselves and their families was. All of these mechanics acknowledged that they had not looked into what the employer was paying for these costs. At this point I let them know that I did not know the costs, but did inform them that my family's average health care costs including out of pocket expenses along with insurance premiums averaged $1200/ month. I also informed these union workers that on rough years our total out of pocket has been as high as $19,000 as our deductibles are $2,000 per person / $5,000 for the family. There was a long silence, I was the first to ask, how much the employer was asking each union employee to come up with. The amount was minimal, my response was that maybe your employer was giving the union workers a taste of "just how high" these costs have become. As I left the service department I informed these union employees to look closely at the whole picture, the contract was signed in June or July. Fast forward to today... Doc the contracts you cite are instances where the union workers have been asked to reopen an already signed contract. The situation I cite has to do with laying the ground work for upcoming contracts. My contention is straight forward, have the administration take the financial sacrifice first. How does one bargain in good faith when the "Financial PAIN" is not evenly distributed. As I review the revenue side of our districts budget it seems obvious that this "financial pain" is more than a passing breeze. I feel that with full disclosure to both the valued employees of our district along with the taxpayers, we will prevail and be stronger in the long term. The key is to get everyone on the same page and stop wasting precious energy running in circles. The time of identifying the concerns are past, it is time to execute a plausible long term plan. I don't disagree at all with your thoughts on how it should run, or that sometimes it ight work out. But as you say, when these groups have NEVER had to do any of this in the past - and some of their leaders tell them stories of CEO's making zillions in the provate sector - their grasp on reality is often not very clear. Also I believe there are going to be times upcoming that the rank and file might be willing to listen, but the 'leaders' won't... unfortunately I see it failing today still more than succeeding, but yes you do have to start somewhere. How did the negotiations go in 203 ? They kept virtually everything that could have helped the budget situation and that was not re negotiating an exisitng contract. much like our 'leaders' in Congress who also do not have a good grasp on reality it seems, union leaders feelthey have a lot at stake. Yes, rational people will look at situations where their company might go out of business without concessions, or many co workers may lose jobs etc.. however many of the time rhetoric from leaders keeps them from having all the facts. ( info filtering you know kind of like 204 SB abd SD have done to the public about things like the true cost of MCHS- the bond financing - number of students etc) - I hope your situation happens more often than not- history tells me it won't though. |
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Mar 14, 2010 21:53:04 GMT -6
Arch,
As you know I keep almost all the teaching staff and many in the administration in high regard. From the primary, junior high, and high school level, I have been extremely satisfied with the teaching my children have received. There has been but one incident in the decade plus that required any real attention. Even that incident (which proved that even educators can have a bad day and misread a situation) was handled within a 48 hour time frame.
My point is if you disregard the importance of human capital, you are indeed doomed. To be fired only to be rehired is a "for crap" policy. Teaching is a high stress position that requires much more than many professions. It can be argued that the financial returns are better for the rank and file educator but that is mainly because of how far the private sector has fallen.
An educator should be held in much higher esteem than what many are being shown today. A common signmaker can easily make double that of an educator. Tell me who has more impact in molding our most highly prized human capital (our kids). A guy that hangs signs on buildings and trucks or an educator molding the minds of our next generation.
I have been fired from a job once in my life, only to be asked to come back 5 months later. My reply after I let the manager buy me a nice steak lunch was sorry, I have found better opportunities.
There are many opportunities for well rounded young educators in the private sector, let us keep our guard up that these educators stay in district molding our next generation.
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Post by macrockett on Mar 14, 2010 21:57:51 GMT -6
Hey Mac, obviously you are well versed in the real #'s and just how ugly they are (with regard to defined pension plans). How well is the plan that handles the teachers in 204 district doing? Excuse my ignorance if this has been covered recently. I just have jumped back in and am basically to lazy to look through the reams of info you have presented lately. Note that I am not a believer in any defined pension plan and personally feel that in long term almost everyone of these plans are doomed to fail based on basic knowledge of the "Time Value of Money" or in this case the time value of money in reverse. Personally I feel that the district and the union that represents the workers are doing a great disservice to these hard working pension members. With the unrealistic pension plans in place many of these younger workers are willing to work for "less than market " wages, based on the assumption that this "pot at the end of the rainbow" exists. The reality is that the pensions of many of these rank and file workers will not exist in the mid to long term. This situation is even more of a concern based on the fact that many of these workers will not qualify for social security. Would it not be better to offer a market driven keogh type plan and have these workers participate in the social security system. Note IMO the social security system is another ponzi scheme, but at least the federal government can print $$$ to finance it . The teachers pension is underfunded like all the plans in IL SSSM. Here is a quick summary: www.civicfed.org/iifs/blog/illinois%E2%80%99-underfunded-pensionsThe main reason the IL defined pensions create a problem, imo, is twofold: First, the current revenue stream coming into IL is inadequate to both fund the pensions and address other needs of the state, therefore, the State just under funds the pension. Second, the assumption of the 8.5% return in perpetuity just isn't realistic, today especially as leverage (volatility) is coming out of the market post financial crisis and that means the likelihood of those types of returns are even less realistic. Read the CA article above on expected returns. Also the Institutional Investor article points out that in loss years, the investment has to do even better to make that up, which can be unrealistic as well. The alternative that States are turning to to replace DB is defined contribution, like most of us have. As for social security, I think the most logical fix right now is extend the age of eligibility out further as they have done before. They may also try to means test it, but legally I am not sure they could do that. How they have gotten around that, in the past is further tax the social security income based on other earned income. |
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Post by Arch on Mar 14, 2010 22:04:59 GMT -6
SSSM,
I've seen the curriculum here go down with each passing year. I have a long list of teachers who are just coasting through their job where the only effort put forth seems to be removing the copyright off a university's materials and passing them off as their own lesson.
There are plenty of good teachers in the district but there are also plenty of ones who should have thought of a career change a while ago...but they don't have to; thank you Union.
Since the Union would rather protect the dead-weight than give them up I think we should make them all even-steven from an employer point of view and weed them out ourselves. Then, as you say, let some of the younger eager ones come in and backfill the empty chairs.
The district needs to seriously look at expanding their online offerings as well for the seriously motivated kids.
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Post by Arch on Mar 14, 2010 22:06:37 GMT -6
macrockett,
If they can't means-test for SS, then they can remove the cap for the tax and keep taxing above $106Kish..or wherever it is now.
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Post by macrockett on Mar 14, 2010 22:21:06 GMT -6
Arch, As you know I keep almost all the teaching staff and many in the administration in high regard. From the primary, junior high, and high school level, I have been extremely satisfied with the teaching my children have received. There has been but one incident in the decade plus that required any real attention. Even that incident (which proved that even educators can have a bad day and misread a situation) was handled within a 48 hour time frame. My point is if you disregard the importance of human capital, you are indeed doomed. To be fired only to be rehired is a "for crap" policy. Teaching is a high stress position that requires much more than many professions. It can be argued that the financial returns are better for the rank and file educator but that is mainly because of how far the private sector has fallen. An educator should be held in much higher esteem than what many are being shown today. A common signmaker can easily make double that of an educator. Tell me who has more impact in molding our most highly prized human capital (our kids). A guy that hangs signs on buildings and trucks or an educator molding the minds of our next generation. I have been fired from a job once in my life, only to be asked to come back 5 months later. My reply after I let the manager buy me a nice steak lunch was sorry, I have found better opportunities. There are many opportunities for well rounded young educators in the private sector, let us keep our guard up that these educators stay in district molding our next generation. To compare public and private employees is apples and oranges SSSM. Two totally separate sets of circumstances. To compare yourself as a sign maker, to an educator is also a false premise. Did you risk capital to start your business? Did you work hours that weren't rewarded with business? Risk/reward goes hand in hand with the private sector, not the public sector. In other words, it is your hard work that creates sales. It is a risk for which you hope to be rewarded, but there are no guarantees. In addition, all the capital you put into the business could be lost if the business fails. I could also argue that the value of a teacher is only defined by the expected return of the student. Today, in the private sector those expectations are falling because of growing foreign competition. Therefore, if the expected return of an eventual graduate falls relative to the past, the value of the educator falls accordingly. What is the value of an education, and the educator, if a graduate has skills but there is no one out there willing to employ them? There are many ways to look at this issue. ----------------------------------------- The other issue I have with education in the U.S. is that it is the most expensive in the world yet, according to the OECD, we rank 11th over all of the developed nations and, as the OECD also points out, the US is the only developed nations where 25-34 year-olds are not better educated than 55-64 year-olds. ourtimes.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/oecd-education-rankings/www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_43586328_1_1_1_1,00.html It seems to me that later observation shows that we are clearly falling behind other developed nations, at a time when the cost of education in the US is starting to grow exponentially. At least with health care, which is the most expensive in the world, we are considered to have the best as I recall. |
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Post by macrockett on Mar 14, 2010 22:25:51 GMT -6
macrockett, If they can't means-test for SS, then they can remove the cap for the tax and keep taxing above $106Kish..or wherever it is now. They can Arch, and they might. However, if the return is not proportional to the amount paid in I suspect that one will be challenged as just a tax on income v in exchange for a benefit. Might not go over too well as other alternatives. Remember, politician have spines as weak as SB members  |
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