Take a look ahead - college

[casey]

Just started this thread here to add miscellaneous information relating to college preparation stuff. Most of my examples here relate to Big10 Midwestern schools (Purdue, Iowa, Indiana, U of I, etc.) and rules are different wherever you go. Don't just believe my information here but look it up and find out on your own. I certainly do not have all the answers here and am learning all the time.

We're just starting the college admission/selection process and boy have I learned A LOT of things (mostly through stumbling). To be honest, Neuqua has not done the best job advising my child on the whole college process. We've already run into a few hurdles in which I wish I'd know differently.

In no particular order......

The District can do whatever they want promoting AP exams and the number of students passing (with a 3,4, or 5) but recognize each school has different acceptance standards. Some schools for example will take some 3s in their engineering department but mostly 4s and 5s in their business programs (still shaking my head over that one since typically engineering is the hardest program to get in). Scoring a 3 doesn't guarantee you a thing and is often discounted. Therefore a kid taking an AP exam (paying money as well as additional study time and additional testing) and getting a 3 often will NOT get college credit. IPSD can make a big deal about it but no one else will!

Minuses and pluses count on a transcript. Some schools actually weight each plus and minus (example A = 4.0, A- = 3.7, B+ 3.3) to give you an unweighted scale. That number will probably be lower than your child's GPA listed on the transcript. Also, don't forget to take out the non-core classes when figuring out the GPA.

Speaking of weighting don't be fooled that a B in an Honors/AP class will "count" as an A on a college application. Those classes are often very simply unweighted which means a C equals a C and a B equals a B, etc. A student challenging themselves is important but getting the lower grade in a more difficult class often equates to a lower unweighted GPA and less financial scholarship money. The difference between a 3.8 and a 3.7 can be huge (almost $30,000 in some circumstances). Makes one question whether it is worth it to always take the AP/honors classes. Sad but a kid taking all regular classes (example Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and getting all As comes out better than the kid taking all honor's classes and getting Bs. Does that seem fair?

Watch out if your child is planning on being a DI or DII athlete. Check with the Clearinghouse - many of those classes your child wants to take don't count (example film studies does not count as an English credit!). Don't get surprised at the end and don't count on your child's counselor to tell you the information. Research it on your own.

Also, consider having your child retake the ACT. Each little point can make a huge financial difference. The difference between a 27, 28, or a 30 can be tens of thousands of dollars. Speaking of ACT you don't need to list schools of where to send scores when you sign up. If your child will be taking it again, it might be worth it to wait until the end to determine the highest composite score and have only that one sent. Schools claim they don't look at the lower ACT scores but rather only the highest one. Who knows but it might make more sense to wait until after the fact and spend the $9 to send it out at the end.

I'll be adding more as time goes on but I hope this helps someone.

[doctorwho]

Aug 23, 2010 16:17:12 GMT -6 casey said:

Just started this thread here to add miscellaneous information relating to college preparation stuff. Most of my examples here relate to Big10 Midwestern schools (Purdue, Iowa, Indiana, U of I, etc.) and rules are different wherever you go. Don't just believe my information here but look it up and find out on your own. I certainly do not have all the answers here and am learning all the time.

We're just starting the college admission/selection process and boy have I learned A LOT of things (mostly through stumbling). To be honest, Neuqua has not done the best job advising my child on the whole college process. We've already run into a few hurdles in which I wish I'd know differently.

In no particular order......

The District can do whatever they want promoting AP exams and the number of students passing (with a 3,4, or 5) but recognize each school has different acceptance standards. Some schools for example will take some 3s in their engineering department but mostly 4s and 5s in their business programs (still shaking my head over that one since typically engineering is the hardest program to get in). Scoring a 3 doesn't guarantee you a thing and is often discounted. Therefore a kid taking an AP exam (paying money as well as additional study time and additional testing) and getting a 3 often will NOT get college credit. IPSD can make a big deal about it but no one else will!

Minuses and pluses count on a transcript. Some schools actually weight each plus and minus (example A = 4.0, A- = 3.7, B+ 3.3) to give you an unweighted scale. That number will probably be lower than your child's GPA listed on the transcript. Also, don't forget to take out the non-core classes when figuring out the GPA.

Speaking of weighting don't be fooled that a B in an Honors/AP class will "count" as an A on a college application. Those classes are often very simply unweighted which means a C equals a C and a B equals a B, etc. A student challenging themselves is important but getting the lower grade in a more difficult class often equates to a lower unweighted GPA and less financial scholarship money. The difference between a 3.8 and a 3.7 can be huge (almost $30,000 in some circumstances). Makes one question whether it is worth it to always take the AP/honors classes. Sad but a kid taking all regular classes (example Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and getting all As comes out better than the kid taking all honor's classes and getting Bs. Does that seem fair?

Watch out if your child is planning on being a DI or DII athlete. Check with the Clearinghouse - many of those classes your child wants to take don't count (example film studies does not count as an English credit!). Don't get surprised at the end and don't count on your child's counselor to tell you the information. Research it on your own.

Also, consider having your child retake the ACT. Each little point can make a huge financial difference. The difference between a 27, 28, or a 30 can be tens of thousands of dollars. Speaking of ACT you don't need to list schools of where to send scores when you sign up. If your child will be taking it again, it might be worth it to wait until the end to determine the highest composite score and have only that one sent. Schools claim they don't look at the lower ACT scores but rather only the highest one. Who knows but it might make more sense to wait until after the fact and spend the $9 to send it out at the end.

I'll be adding more as time goes on but I hope this helps someone.

This is a great thread casey - as I learned many things the hard way 7+ years ago when my first graduated from Waubonsie.

Great advice on the NCAA Clearing House ( register your child beginning of junor year) - who tracks progress and eligibilty and no school will offer you a thing until that hurdle is cleared. I also learned that a few classes my daughter took- and wanted to take that seemed like there were part of a 'track' were not NCAA approved. Watch especially for one off classes...even ones that are very hard, it takes time to get them approved and that is up to the school to do...and not the quickest to address those issues.

As far as 'weighted' grades -- yes all this nonsense where 50% of the kids are 3.8 and better has caused many colleges to say, hey wait a minute. This kid is a 3.9 and yet ACT is 19 and didn't take the SAT ? I am glad Benet does not weight their grades to begin with as the whole uplift thing is nonsense. Many schools see thru that and unweight anyway.

The best thing to do is check with each individual school- as even within conferences / states preferences are quite different. Some value a challenging curriculum #1, some GPA comes first - class rank fortunately is becoming less prevalent although some still use- check.

talk to other parents who've been there- don't be afraid to ask questions as a general high school counselor cannot possibly know all the answers - and for those not specializing in college placement they will know even less as they have other large parts of their jobs also. Attend sessions schools you are interested in holdin the Chicago area- the people who speak there have these answers..and now schools are banding together to invite you where multiple schools speak-- we were invited to one @ the Hilton where Columbia / Rice / Brown/ Univ of Chicago and Cornell came together...very interesting.

As for the 3's on AP exams, not even going there-- raised that issue quite a while ago and some remain impressed with the 3 % -

[slp]

great thread! Thanks for info. keep it coming! My oldest is a soph at WVHS and we will be looking at all of this info soon enough!!!!

[casey]

The latest new thing I've learned is that the ACT test administered by a high school doesn't count for NCAA. Apparently they will only count ones that are administered on a National Testing Date. Who'd have known that one?

[casey]

Oh and don't rule out looking at a school because of the stated costs. Let's face it, hardly anyone pays the sticker price just as in car shopping. When we looked at University of Dayton the out of state tuition only cost is around $28,000 ($10,000 room and board) year but there's so much scholarship merit based aid. The initial scholarship that my daughter would automatically qualify for (based on GPA/ACT) would lob $45,000 off tuition for all four years. So that brings it down to a much more reasonable level.

Be careful when you look at room and board costs and make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Some dining plans include a 21 meal plan/week and some include 10! Some include flex dollars, etc. It's rather confusing and certainly not like it was when I was in college.

Don't get too caught up in all the bells and whistles of a college. The rock climbing walls, lazy rivers, health clubs, chef and ala carte dining, etc. are nice but they're not coming free of charge. They're being subsidized by high tuition costs. Bottom-line is it's the education program being provided not all the ancillary things that should determine a student's choice.

Oh and be careful to those of you who are admitted to U of I but only on a conditional liberal arts status. Transferring into the college of business or engineering is a lot harder than anyone at U of I wants to admit. I talked to numerous parents/students at U of I that were not able to transfer to their preferred major (business/engineering) even though they had four semesters at U of I with 4.0. Confusing definitely.

Some colleges admit you in a college (business, nursing, engineering, etc.) but some admit you to a general liberal arts education to start. For those students unsure of their major this seems to be a much better way but not all colleges do that.

[lacy]

"Don't get too caught up in all the bells and whistles of a college. The rock climbing walls, lazy rivers, health clubs, chef and ala carte dining, etc. are nice but they're not coming free of charge. They're being subsidized by high tuition costs. Bottom-line is it's the education program being provided not all the ancillary things that should determine a student's choice."

Very true - and applicable to a high school education as well.

[asmodeus]

I talked to numerous parents/students at U of I that were not able to transfer to their preferred major (business/engineering) even though they had four semesters at U of I with 4.0.

Those students must not have taken the appropriate classes -- otherwise, I'd be absolutely livid and would consider a lawsuit.

[casey]

Aug 25, 2010 7:30:56 GMT -6 asmodeus said:

I talked to numerous parents/students at U of I that were not able to transfer to their preferred major (business/engineering) even though they had four semesters at U of I with 4.0.

Those students must not have taken the appropriate classes -- otherwise, I'd be absolutely livid and would consider a lawsuit.

To be honest, I don't think there's a thing they could do. When a student is admitted to U of I in a Liberal Arts program with the hope to transfer into the business or engineering college, there's absolutely no guarantee that they'll get in. These kids supposedly took all the right classes at U of I the first two years(generic math, science, etc.) and did earn 4.0s but still weren't admitted. Hate to say it but I think it's a dog-eat-dog world there.

The facilitator (or admissions counselor or whatever her title was) for the business department made the comment that the students may not have done enough to stand out and get noticed (not enough outside clubs, activities, service projects, etc.). One parent said their child transferred out of U of I and one parent said their child just switched majors. I guess the bottom-line is you can't count on a thing.

The only reason I put this out here is not to dis U of I but to explain a common misunderstanding that a child with the right credentials/grades can easily switch "colleges" at U of I. IF your child plans to major in business or engineering you'd better hope that they are admitted to THAT school and not admitted to a different school with the hopes to transfer.

FWIW, many colleges do NOT make you apply to a specific college at time of acceptance (U of I does though). In other words, you can apply and get admitted and then figure out your major later on.

[asmodeus]

Aug 25, 2010 8:16:40 GMT -6 casey said:

Aug 25, 2010 7:30:56 GMT -6 asmodeus said:

Those students must not have taken the appropriate classes -- otherwise, I'd be absolutely livid and would consider a lawsuit.

To be honest, I don't think there's a thing they could do. When a student is admitted to U of I in a Liberal Arts program with the hope to transfer into the business or engineering college, there's absolutely no guarantee that they'll get in. These kids supposedly took all the right classes at U of I the first two years(generic math, science, etc.) and did earn 4.0s but still weren't admitted. Hate to say it but I think it's a dog-eat-dog world there.

The facilitator (or admissions counselor or whatever her title was) for the business department made the comment that the students may not have done enough to stand out and get noticed (not enough outside clubs, activities, service projects, etc.). One parent said their child transferred out of U of I and one parent said their child just switched majors. I guess the bottom-line is you can't count on a thing.

The only reason I put this out here is not to dis U of I but to explain a common misunderstanding that a child with the right credentials/grades can easily switch "colleges" at U of I. IF your child plans to major in business or engineering you'd better hope that they are admitted to THAT school and not admitted to a different school with the hopes to transfer.

FWIW, many colleges do NOT make you apply to a specific college at time of acceptance (U of I does though). In other words, you can apply and get admitted and then figure out your major later on.

It's seems odd that they go through another admissions process that takes into consideration outside activities. To me, the student's grades (and taking the proper classes, e.g., not basket weaving) are the only factors that matter. Otherwise, they should make everyone take a test and use that as a factor. But at least you would know that going in as a freshman.

I wonder if they also go back to the high school and ACT numbers as criteria -- for example, I guess it's possible they give preference to kids who just missed getting into engineering/business at the outset, over kids who barely even squeaked into liberal arts.

[casey]

Agreed but nonetheless I look at U of I in a different light. My child would not go there unless she got into the exact program she wanted but I'm realisitic enough to realize that that will be a stretch. I'm sure everyone has heard stories of the many kids from Neuqua that can't get it even with 30s on the ACT and 4.0+. That's just sad.

[sam2]

I want to emphasize Casey's point about tuition and scholarships. Many expensive schools offer enough aid to make the expenses closer to in-state tuition. It's easier if your student has a 4.0, but we had good offers with a 3.0 and a 27 ACT.

As for majors, our decision was driven, in part, because our son was admitted directly into his major -- no waiting until he's a junior to find out. One of the plusses, in our case, is that he is taking courses directly related to his major in his first semester. The majority of his classes are in his specific field, with only a few gen ed classes. That will likely continue through all four years. If he decides to transfer to another school or major, I expect a lot of those major specific classes will have been wasted. However, our son loves his major and never had much interest in the gen eds, so we think he will do much better in this type of environment.

Make as many campus visits as you can arrange. Schedule a time to meet with department heads, if you can. In our experience, most schools were very accommodating. In some cases, our son was able to attend a class. Check out the living arrangements and eat in the cafeteria -- there is a world of difference, even between state schools in Illinois.
After you've narrowed you choices down, visit the top choice again.

Apply early!

[incognito]

Aug 24, 2010 19:58:17 GMT -6 casey said:

The latest new thing I've learned is that the ACT test administered by a high school doesn't count for NCAA. Apparently they will only count ones that are administered on a National Testing Date. Who'd have known that one?

Who told you this? And, effective when? My 2010 WVHS graduate is playing DII football on scholarship and the ONLY ACT test he took was the one at WVHS. Cleared NCAA Clearninghouse without a hitch. Very curious who told you that. Quite possible it is new this year...we got lucky...didn't have to pay the extra $50 for a 2nd test, not to mention the time.

[casey]

The instructor/facilitator of the ACT prep class we are doing told me this. When I tried to verify the only information I could find said "IMPORTANT: The NCAA Clearinghouse requires that an ACT or SAT test be taken. An ACT or SAT test taken on a national testing date meets this requirement." I guess technically it does not say specifically that you must take it on a national testing date but I wouldn't want to find out differently.

I went by what the instructor told me but again, I would verify anything and everything. As you said the rules could have changed. Nothing is very easy to find and it requires a lot of checking and double-checking. I just wish we had a counselor or some expert in the schools that would know this stuff.

[lacy]

Aug 25, 2010 21:50:17 GMT -6 casey said:

The instructor/facilitator of the ACT prep class we are doing told me this. When I tried to verify the only information I could find said "IMPORTANT: The NCAA Clearinghouse requires that an ACT or SAT test be taken. An ACT or SAT test taken on a national testing date meets this requirement." I guess technically it does not say specifically that you must take it on a national testing date but I wouldn't want to find out differently.

I went by what the instructor told me but again, I would verify anything and everything. As you said the rules could have changed. Nothing is very easy to find and it requires a lot of checking and double-checking. I just wish we had a counselor or some expert in the schools that would know this stuff.

Maybe check with the college and career center at school. I have found them to be knowledgeable and helpful. They deal specifically with college info while the counselors also deal with schedules and other matters and only do the college process every 3 years.

[kidsfirst]

Great information, thanks! I am clueless on the college process so any pointers are greatly appreciated!