More state mandates tough on District 204

[doctorwho]

More and more people are listening to what they are hearing about 204's financial woes, whether it be at mixers, social events etc ....even those usually focused on 203. Please ensure your voice is heard and let Tim know we appreciate his coverage and would love for him to dig further into the mess here--and how we got here.
New SB members to go with a few holdovers that also know the sad story are getting recognized for their vocality and accuracy of their data -- kudo's to them for trying to change the spendthrift culture of the 204 board, that has now jeopardized the entire district.

napervillesun.suntimes.com/news/west/9139386-418/more-state-mandates-tough-on-district-204.html

More state mandates tough on District 204

By TIM WEST [e-mail] December 1, 2011 10:28PM
Reprints


Updated: December 2, 2011 2:43AM



If I lived in Indian Prairie School District 204 I’d probably be tempted to take up the district on its offer to residents to give it suggestions on ways to save money.

The district initially asked for suggestions in its 204 e-News and on its website. It posed the request for ideas on paring the budget in the wake of information that the district could have a budget shortfall of $3.5 million next year.

Now, that projected deficit has been compounded by news that new state mandates are going to add an additional $4.7 million to the total, boosting it to $8.2 million.

At Monday’s board meeting, some of the board members were critical of the staff, with Mark Rising saying the staff should have anticipated the impact of the state mandates a long time ago.

For as long as I can remember, local school districts have been complaining about mandates, usually unfunded, from the state and the federal governments.

Unfortunately, part and parcel of being a school administrator or board member is having state and federal bureaucrats tell you what to have to do and leaving the locals to figure out how to pay for it.

It’s particularly galling in Illinois, where our bankrupt state conveniently ignores another mandate — that of the Illinois Constitution of 1970 which calls for the state to bear the lion’s share of the funding for education — and most recently has fallen way behind on what it owes to school districts.

I have sympathy for the board’s frustration, and even to an extent with Rising’s criticism of the staff, though the board ought to be aiming its guns at the state. Wouldn’t you think that maybe at a time when local governments all over are under the gun to cut costs, the state and the feds might want to defer the mandates for a few years, until the economy improves?

And it is not as if the district has kept increasing its spending in the face of the recession. Board President Curt Bradshaw reminded his colleagues that over the past three years the district has cut some $30 million from the budget through various economy measures. He also said that District 204 spends about 25 percent less per student than other DuPage County districts.

As a point of information for those who want to give the district some ideas for savings, its budget from the current fiscal year is on the district’s website.

The numbers from next year aren’t in yet, but looking at this year’s budget, the $315 million for expenditures includes nearly $225 million for salaries and employee benefits.

Eight million bucks lopped off might not seem like much, but when most of it is money that relates directly to student instruction it’s a considerable amount.

To get the $30 million in savings over the past three years, the district has done such things as figure out how to manage its energy costs more efficiently and how to make sure that students who go to the schools actually are residents of the district.

Maybe there are some considerable sums to be saved in the other big ticket items such as purchased services ($37 million, largely transportation and operations and maintenance) but the eagle eye the district has put on those costs in past years makes one tend to doubt it.

One wishes the district well and hope that its fiscal solutions this time around are relatively painless, but it’s hard not to fear that if budget cutting keeps up at some point markedly fewer teachers with larger classes may well be the result.

While the residents of District 204 are pondering what to suggest to the district that it do about the deficit, they probably should also be considering the larger question of what level of educational system they expect the district to provide and what they are willing to fund.

[rew]

"While the residents of District 204 are pondering what to suggest to the district that it do about the deficit, they probably should also be considering the larger question of what level of educational system they expect the district to provide and what they are willing to fund."

I don't think Tim is asking how we got into this mess, but how much are you willing to raise your taxes to get the district out of the mess? I already have my answer.

[doctorwho]

Dec 3, 2011 12:15:18 GMT -6 rew said:

"While the residents of District 204 are pondering what to suggest to the district that it do about the deficit, they probably should also be considering the larger question of what level of educational system they expect the district to provide and what they are willing to fund."

I don't think Tim is asking how we got into this mess, but how much are you willing to raise your taxes to get the district out of the mess? I already have my answer.

Oh, I am reminding him of how we got here-- which is why, your answer to how much and my answer to how much are likely the same-- not a damn dime more.

This will not be swept under the rug -- those responsible will be held accountable

[macrockett]

Sadly West doesn't care about the truth and he certainly doesn't want to criticize any public body, especially not D204. That wouldn't be PC. Besides, he might have to actually go out and collect some facts. Heaven forbid.

Of course facts are difficult to obtain these days. Like what exactly was that deal with the administrative package? I asked for the documents that summarize that deal and got a couple of excel spreadsheets that touch on a small part. Wouldn't you think the District would have a term sheet that they give to all the administrators to summarize the deal?

In addition, D204 spends on average 25% less than other Districts per student "than other DuPage County Districts." Why would they say that particular phrase? Those Districts would be 200, 201, 202, 203, and 205 per the useless Regional Superintendent. Now is Bradshaw and Holm talking about the cost of instruction alone? Or are they talking about the "all in cost", which includes adminstration and operations?

According to the 2011 Report Card for each District, the 2009-10 operating expenditure per pupil are as follows:

200--$11990
201--$15759
202--$17058
203--$11864
205--$12482

Average of the above is $13, 831. If you divide D204s cost per student, $10426 by that average $13831, you indeed get a cost of 25% less! Damn, either the District is really efficient, or we are really cheap when it comes to spending on our students....right?

Well maybe there is something else going on. Ya think? When it comes to D204 I never just accept anything at face value. Why would I? I mean based on what we have written on this site, you would have to be an idio... oops, that isn't politically correct either so lets just try to educate rather than alienate...

Lets add some more facts. That only sounds logical, right? Ok, how about first asking how many kids are there in those other Du Page County Districts? Ugh, ah ooooo well D200 has 13413, D203 had 17563. That's a good enough sample of those 5 Districts right? OK, you caught me, D201 has 1537 (that is not a typo unless the Report Card is wrong) D202 has 1637, and D205 has 8054 students enrolled.

Wow, D204 has 28990 enrolled (and dropping I might add....)

Lets add some more facts, like what is the pupil/admin ratio in each school district? D200 --275.9; D201--143.4; D202--148.8; D203--214.2; D205--234.7 and D204--347.2.

So do you think we aren't comparing apples to apples here? Note that D204 has many more pupils per administrator, we call that "economies of scale" in the business world.

So lets look at this another way:
District -------# enrolled--Pup/Adm ratio--Expense per student
D200 ----- 13413----------275.9------------$11990
D201 -------- 1537---------143.4------------$15759
D202-----------1637----------148.8------------$17058
D203---------17563----------214.2------------$11864
D205----------8054-----------234.7------------$12482
D204--------28990-----------347.2-------------$10426

How does that look? Any patterns develop? We could go on and on with the economies of scale, like student/football field ratio or whatever you want. Bottom line, if you want apples to apples, strip out all the crap and compare students/educators ration and those salaries and benefits expense per students. THAT is the important ratio and expense, imho.

[macrockett]

Lets add one other ratio to the above, the pupil/certified staff, so we can figure out the mix of certified/administrator. That should tell us even more. More on that later.

[southsidesignmaker]

Big Mac,

Thanks for the info on "like district costs". It is encouraging to note that when removing the 2 districts with the lowest enrollment our districts cost per pupil is still extremely competitive.

D200 ----- 13413----------275.9------------$11990
D203---------17563----------214.2------------$11864
D205----------8054-----------234.7------------$12482
______________________________________________


Taking the average of these 3 district $11,990, $11,864, $12,462 ===== $12,105.33 per pupil.

D204---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$10426 per pupil.

When I go door to door pushing an ops ref. I will be sure to include the info. Thanks for bringing it to the board's attention.

I always thought you had it in you to show all sides: the good , the bad, and the ugly!

With this info, and the fact that our district continues to improve with respect to ACT scores, maybe the idea of getting folks to pony up a bit more ca$h is a possibility.

[macrockett]

Dec 5, 2011 13:55:20 GMT -6 southsidesignmaker said:

Big Mac,

Thanks for the info on "like district costs". It is encouraging to note that when removing the 2 districts with the lowest enrollment our districts cost per pupil is still extremely competitive.

D200 ----- 13413----------275.9------------$11990
D203---------17563----------214.2------------$11864
D205----------8054-----------234.7------------$12482
______________________________________________


Taking the average of these 3 district $11,990, $11,864, $12,462 ===== $12,105.33 per pupil.

D204---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$10426 per pupil.

When I go door to door pushing an ops ref. I will be sure to include the info. Thanks for bringing it to the board's attention.

I always thought you had it in you to show all sides: the good , the bad, and the ugly!

With this info, and the fact that our district continues to improve with respect to ACT scores, maybe the idea of getting folks to pony up a bit more ca$h is a possibility.

Like I said SSSM, the math isn't done yet.

As to my past posts, I have always supplied the facts to support my position. To date not a single person has presented a counterargument to the long and winding road, for example.

And when you visit your neighbors I hope you mention that they are paying materially higher interest rates on over 1/2 of the debt to create the excess funds ($19 million) needed to finish that High School that was never necessary.

[macrockett]

Here are a few more facts regarding those test scores SSSM. Illinois ranks in the lower half of United States in test performance and the US ranks in the lowest quarter of math and science on the pisa results conducted by the OECD, the 32 or so most developed nations in the world. And we get those poor results even tho after Luxembourg we have the most expensive educational cost per pupil in the world

[casey]

Dec 5, 2011 13:55:20 GMT -6 southsidesignmaker said:

With this info, and the fact that our district continues to improve with respect to ACT scores, maybe the idea of getting folks to pony up a bit more ca$h is a possibility.

OMG! I hope that you're joking? I think it'll be a cold day in hell before "folks pony up a bit more ca$h". I don't think that will ever happen in the foreseeable future. Just keep getting Tim West to spread your message .

[doctorwho]

Dec 5, 2011 13:55:20 GMT -6 southsidesignmaker said:

Big Mac,

Thanks for the info on "like district costs". It is encouraging to note that when removing the 2 districts with the lowest enrollment our districts cost per pupil is still extremely competitive.

D200 ----- 13413----------275.9------------$11990
D203---------17563----------214.2------------$11864
D205----------8054-----------234.7------------$12482
______________________________________________


Taking the average of these 3 district $11,990, $11,864, $12,462 ===== $12,105.33 per pupil.

D204---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$10426 per pupil.

When I go door to door pushing an ops ref. I will be sure to include the info. Thanks for bringing it to the board's attention.

I always thought you had it in you to show all sides: the good , the bad, and the ugly!

With this info, and the fact that our district continues to improve with respect to ACT scores, maybe the idea of getting folks to pony up a bit more ca$h is a possibility.

When you go door to door- you better be prepared to answer questions on the $154M-- when are we going to pay Brach Brody -- and explain to people you need the extra money because of the $3.8M extra it costs to run a 3rd HS we don't need.
psst=-- someone may even ask you where those 12,000 high school kids are hiding ? where are the missing 3000?

look forward to seeing you on the road- please ensure you come to May Watts on the off chance you might ring my bell

We'd love to hear the pitch....I'll be writing for the other side this time

[gatordog]

Dec 5, 2011 14:18:20 GMT -6 macrockett said:

....

..... To date not a single person has presented a counterargument to the long and winding road, for example.

....to finish that High School that was never necessary.

As far as I have looked, and I looked very extensively several months ago, there is no other comparable, K-12 multi-HS school district in the entire country (excluding urban, large low income demographics) that chooses to operate mulitple >4000 enrollment HSs,

Can you show me any other comparable district in which their long and winding road led those citizens to the conclusion that two or more mega-schools were the best way to deliver HS education to their students? (Truly, I wish I had considered this more back when our district led us to the freshman campus model)

I believe the majority of 204 residents will be very statisfied operating HS with enrollments of ~ 2500-3000-3500 for the forseeable future, next decade and more.

[doctorwho]

Dec 6, 2011 12:46:44 GMT -6 gatordog said:

Dec 5, 2011 14:18:20 GMT -6 macrockett said:

....

..... To date not a single person has presented a counterargument to the long and winding road, for example.

....to finish that High School that was never necessary.

As far as I have looked, and I looked very extensively several months ago, there is no other comparable, K-12 multi-HS school district in the entire country (excluding urban, large low income demographics) that chooses to operate mulitple >4000 enrollment HSs,

Can you show me any other comparable district in which their long and winding road led those citizens to the conclusion that two or more mega-schools were the best way to deliver HS education to their students? (Truly, I wish I had considered this more back when our district led us to the freshman campus model)

I believe the majority of 204 residents will be very statisfied operating HS with enrollments of ~ 2500-3000-3500 for the forseeable future, next decade and more.

The almost $4m additional per year to do such ( and will be an ever rising fixed cost) - makes it necessary for other items to be cut today. Ever increasing revenues are a thing of the past. If everyone is so happy with it then they should be OK to make the sacrifice for it.
Which $4M worth of items should go for that luxury ?


Oswego ( some growth- still pending ) is the best example of re-evaluation of need.

amazingly the push for the 3rd HS wqs from a former 204 planner

[macrockett]

Dec 6, 2011 12:46:44 GMT -6 gatordog said:

Dec 5, 2011 14:18:20 GMT -6 macrockett said:

....

..... To date not a single person has presented a counterargument to the long and winding road, for example.

....to finish that High School that was never necessary.

As far as I have looked, and I looked very extensively several months ago, there is no other comparable, K-12 multi-HS school district in the entire country (excluding urban, large low income demographics) that chooses to operate mulitple >4000 enrollment HSs,

Can you show me any other comparable district in which their long and winding road led those citizens to the conclusion that two or more mega-schools were the best way to deliver HS education to their students? (Truly, I wish I had considered this more back when our district led us to the freshman campus model)

I believe the majority of 204 residents will be very statisfied operating HS with enrollments of ~ 2500-3000-3500 for the forseeable future, next decade and more.

We already went down that road Gatordog, I suggest you find the thread and reread it. In brief, you couldn't cite a single study that says (in this case) 3700 students in one school is detrimental. In fact, I personally think it can prepare more students for Big 10, or other large college, live where class sizes are in the 100s (even tho in the case of Neuqua, class sizes would be unaffected no matter what the overall size of the school).

Given that, why spend so much money on space we did not need and why incur an extra $3.5 million annually on more administration that does not educate our kids. Finally, why cause such massive dislocation of kids and cause some to incur even longer commutes than they had before?

In summary, just because you have an opinion as to why other schools were built a certain way doesn't substantiate a conclusion one way or the other, nor does it make it fact.

[EagleDad]

Dec 6, 2011 12:46:44 GMT -6 gatordog said:

I believe the majority of 204 residents will be very statisfied operating HS with enrollments of ~ 2500-3000-3500 for the forseeable future, next decade and more.

I have to wonder how "satisfied" they will be in this economy to be funding the operations of these 3 HS at reduced occupancies through additional operating referenda - especially when one is woefully under design capacity, and tax rates are rising to offset the lower tax base, despite lowered property valUes.

I guess we'll see - I say let's bring that to the voters today and see how "satisfied" they are. What do you say GD, are you up for it?

[doctorwho]

Dec 6, 2011 21:42:31 GMT -6 EagleDad said:

Dec 6, 2011 12:46:44 GMT -6 gatordog said:

I believe the majority of 204 residents will be very statisfied operating HS with enrollments of ~ 2500-3000-3500 for the forseeable future, next decade and more.

I have to wonder how "satisfied" they will be in this economy to be funding the operations of these 3 HS at reduced occupancies through additional operating referenda - especially when one is woefully under design capacity, and tax rates are rising to offset the lower tax base, despite lowered property valUes.

I guess we'll see - I say let's bring that to the voters today and see how "satisfied" they are. What do you say GD, are you up for it?

asking the voters- that'd be a novel concept for 204--

let's see did we ask the voters when we increased the cost of thenew high school by $30M+ ? No Did we ask them when we moved it FAR from it's original location ? No

We asked them in 2005 and they said No ! So 204 proceeded to LIE to them about; number of HS students expected / split shifts / capacity / location -- and never tell them of the bond financing scheme.

gotta love how this all unfolded while some of the perpetrators acted like choir boys