Yes vs NO

[warriorpride]

I'm not discounting people with very young kids, I'm just trying to point out that, while many people may love where they live & plan on living there for a very long time, there are many reasons that cause people to move. And, I think most people would agree that it's hard to predict what you will be doing & where you will be living in 15 years.

Also, I'm not trying to to say that I don't care about how things will be in 204 in 15 years. In fact, I believe a 3rd HS positions 204 in the best way for the future.

[admin]

My last won't get out until 2023 and I really don't mind the refinance or the third HS. I really think we are up against a deadline. We are going to have a 8500-9500 HS student body for the next 18 years. With only 2 HS, that is a long time for crowded conditions.

[204parent]

truthanyone said:

warriorpride,
You have some good points in your summary.
I will be here in 15 years. My oldest will not even be in HS until 2013 and my youngest will not finish until 2021. I am worried about 10-15 years from now and I know alot of parents with kids the same age as mine are also worried and confused. I don't want to be paying this debt only to find out it was not needed. I feel that even if there is a no vote, things can be worked out by the time my kids are in HS. If you are looking for how to get more yes votes, don't discount the families who will be here in 10-15 years.

The district's reputation could already be irreparably damaged by then.

[fence]

204parent said:

truthanyone said:

warriorpride,
You have some good points in your summary.
I will be here in 15 years. My oldest will not even be in HS until 2013 and my youngest will not finish until 2021. I am worried about 10-15 years from now and I know alot of parents with kids the same age as mine are also worried and confused. I don't want to be paying this debt only to find out it was not needed. I feel that even if there is a no vote, things can be worked out by the time my kids are in HS. If you are looking for how to get more yes votes, don't discount the families who will be here in 10-15 years.

The district's reputation could already be irreparably damaged by then.

The thought that even if there's a no vote, things will work themselves out in 10 years is a hard thing for me to hear. The thought of just waiting to see what happens while the kids who are here now may have less than adequate experiences really doesn't seem like the right way to look at things....

I totally understand that people want to believe this will go away, and 10 years gives you the benefit of having time to see what happens and ultimately build the school down the road if you need it, but for those kids in the system for the next 5 years, you essentially make them your bubble vs. boom test dummies.

And if you think about sending 9000+ kids per year through 2 buildings for the next 5-10 years, what does that do to those buildings and to the teachers quality of life and add to that the split shift thing if it does come to fruition, then how desirable is 204 going to really be? I know the thought of it makes me want to move OUT, and I already live here and like the area. I highly doubt that unless the area was available at a deep discount that families with kids would want any part of that environment.

Aside from the concern about quality of education for the students, and making sure that we can give them a good opportunity to learn and a good experience, I'm also very concerned about this district's reputation in general. Even a few years of unaddressed overcrowding and the split shift thing will throw off enough bad PR to last well into the future. A quality education is a major part of the perceived value of a community and I am interested in protecting that.

[proschool]

truthanyone said:

warriorpride,
You have some good points in your summary.
I will be here in 15 years. My oldest will not even be in HS until 2013 and my youngest will not finish until 2021. I am worried about 10-15 years from now and I know alot of parents with kids the same age as mine are also worried and confused. I don't want to be paying this debt only to find out it was not needed. I feel that even if there is a no vote, things can be worked out by the time my kids are in HS. If you are looking for how to get more yes votes, don't discount the families who will be here in 10-15 years.

Truthanyone:

I don't think that you be so sure things are going to work out for your family after another failed referendum. If the referendum passes the new high school will only be four years old when your child starts high school.

You don't want to incur any debt and then find out it is not needed? Just look at the sizes of your own children's classes and try to imagine that many children in our existing middle schools and high schools. Of course the space will be needed.

Where do you think that the kids will get Yes votes in the future if we can't get them now? You won't get it from the parents who just had thier kids graduate after four years of split shifts.

[Avenging Eagle]

proschool said:

Truthanyone:

I don't think that you be so sure things are going to work out for your family after another failed referendum. If the referendum passes the new high school will only be four years old when your child starts high school.

You don't want to incur any debt and then find out it is not needed? Just look at the sizes of your own children's classes and try to imagine that many children in our existing middle schools and high schools. Of course the space will be needed.

Where do you think that the kids will get Yes votes in the future if we can't get them now? You won't get it from the parents who just had thier kids graduate after four years of split shifts.

This reminds me of the brownie moms story told to me by my neighbor.

Our neighbor went to pick up her daughter from a brownie meeting, and started talking to some unnamed brownie moms. She asked what they thought about the referendum and if they were going to vote yes.

The consensus of the brownie moms was that they didn't have time to worry about the vote since they were too busy with other cookie baking activities, etc.....and that their kids were so young that they could just move if the situation was a problem way in the future when it mattered.

Unfortunately, i think that this attitude is prevalent out there, and the yes vote hinges on the brownie moms vote, and the "unaffected neighborhoods" vote (in which people think they will go to the same place under any scenario, and will not vote or vote no)

Unfortunately, I think this specific problem may bring down the referendum. Any suggestions?

[gatormom]

I think a good approach might be to start with CFO solutions. Afterall, the benefits of those proposals are very simple to understand. The danger of that simplicity is that it is very one-dimensional. What are the consequences to those solutions? Build on to Nequa? What does Nequa lose by doing that. Using numbers everyone agrees on, show the size of student bodies at both high schools. Boundaries, if you thought the last boundary decision was difficult, the new boundaries without the third HS are going to be even harder because they will probably be made without anyone's input, who wants to go through that again. Split shifts, maybe not immediately but at some point. What happens when you lose electives at a HS? How does that impact your child's ability to "compete" for college seats. There are more, but keep it simple. A lot of great information has been passed through this site that can be difficult to obtain if you are not patient.

[truthanyone]

avengingeagle said:

proschool said:

Truthanyone:
Our neighbor went to pick up her daughter from a brownie meeting, and started talking to some unnamed brownie moms. She asked what they thought about the referendum and if they were going to vote yes.

The consensus of the brownie moms was that they didn't have time to worry about the vote since they were too busy with other cookie baking activities, etc.....and that their kids were so young that they could just move if the situation was a problem way in the future when it mattered.

Unfortunately, i think that this attitude is prevalent out there, and the yes vote hinges on the brownie moms vote, and the "unaffected neighborhoods" vote (in which people think they will go to the same place under any scenario, and will not vote or vote no)

Unfortunately, I think this specific problem may bring down the referendum. Any suggestions?

AE: You got my point. There are many groups of people out there that look at this referendum from different views.

I was thinking this thread was to find out how to get more yes votes so I just wanted to point out what others in my kids age group were thinking.

I am glad it got a ot of feedback. I will pass it on.

[stinks]

archwinsome said:

You asked what it would take to get the YES vote.

I post what it would take

You dismiss it as moot.

That's why you will fail to get the YES vote from many people. Dismissing their concerns as moot and not answering their questions.

It's really that simple.

Whoa, I didn't see this until today. I didn't mean to tick you off.

My point about it being moot was that if we are going to go down the refinance route anyway, was it worth discussing even, since it was a foregone conclusion. My comment was not meant to summarily dismiss your initial comment.

Whatever.

[fence]

truthanyone said:

avengingeagle said:

proschool said:

Truthanyone:
Our neighbor went to pick up her daughter from a brownie meeting, and started talking to some unnamed brownie moms. She asked what they thought about the referendum and if they were going to vote yes.

The consensus of the brownie moms was that they didn't have time to worry about the vote since they were too busy with other cookie baking activities, etc.....and that their kids were so young that they could just move if the situation was a problem way in the future when it mattered.

Unfortunately, i think that this attitude is prevalent out there, and the yes vote hinges on the brownie moms vote, and the "unaffected neighborhoods" vote (in which people think they will go to the same place under any scenario, and will not vote or vote no)

Unfortunately, I think this specific problem may bring down the referendum. Any suggestions?

AE: You got my point. There are many groups of people out there that look at this referendum from different views.

I was thinking this thread was to find out how to get more yes votes so I just wanted to point out what others in my kids age group were thinking.

I am glad it got a ot of feedback. I will pass it on.

That's true. Its good to understand the reasons people would either vote no or not vote at all. I guess its just frustrating to hear some of the reasons why. A great deal of the apathy towards the vote probably does come from the groups who feel they're not going to be effected.

Anyway, its a good thing our Naperville Brownie mom's don't live on the East Coast where applications to Andover are filed while the kids are still in vitro! ;D

[Arch]

stinks said:

archwinsome said:

You asked what it would take to get the YES vote.
I post what it would take
You dismiss it as moot.
That's why you will fail to get the YES vote from many people. Dismissing their concerns as moot and not answering their questions.
It's really that simple.

Whoa, I didn't see this until today. I didn't mean to tick you off.
My point about it being moot was that if we are going to go down the refinance route anyway, was it worth discussing even, since it was a foregone conclusion. My comment was not meant to summarily dismiss your initial comment.
Whatever.

It's not moot though because the 2 things overlap and drag out a larger debt burden. Refinancing at a lower rate for 12 years instead of 20 at a 4.X% rate will save the tax payers approximately 50-64 million dollars. NOW, if the referendum passes and we build a new HS, we have the cost of the HS *PLUS* interest, *PLUS* that extra 50-64 million dollars in interest from refinancing to 20 years instead of restarting the clock at 12 years at the cheaper interest rates.

As a person who's been around almost a decade and will be around another couple of decades, I would rather not have to cough up an additional 50-64 million dollars since I'm MORE THAN HAPPY AND WILLING to retire it in 12 years instead of 20. I'll bite that bullet.

Even if it's not convertable, it's still cheaper to retire the existing debt on time instead of dragging it out to 20 more years.

I'd rather take that money when it's retired and spend it on the cirriculum. If we have a school system with a new pretty building but can't escape the long term debt burden to maintain the quality programs we have we're still sunk. "204? Ya, Shame.. used to be nice but their system now stinks, can't afford anything now. That new HS looks cool though, huh?"

[Avenging Eagle]

truthanyone said:

AE: You got my point. There are many groups of people out there that look at this referendum from different views.

I was thinking this thread was to find out how to get more yes votes so I just wanted to point out what others in my kids age group were thinking.

I am glad it got a ot of feedback. I will pass it on.

I was also trying to just report what I have heard for the benefit of all to see some other perspectives if they are trying to figure out who will vote Yes or No.

It is ok if there are some brownie moms out there who don't want to worry about the referendum, but my wife and I discussed what would we have done back in the old days when our kids were that young.

We both agreed that we definitely would have been all over this thing because our young kids are exactly the ones who are being helped by the referendum

Even today, when my kids are not going to receive the benefits of the referendum....we are still all over it...and we are doing it on behalf of the future family who will buy our house and allow us to retire somewhere else....and their kids will get to attend the under-crowded schools.

[stinks]

I've said this before. My parents have lived here for 15 years and have never had kids in the system. They have always voted yes for education. Kudos to you AE and your wife for being unselfish. I truly wish there were more like you . . .

[kae]

Well, I don't see much of anything new here. It seems like the same old FUD.

I'd like an explanation of why there are no other choices but to build a $124 million dollar HS. The SB has yet to give me that. Instead they threaten split shifts, boundries, declining home value, and whatever else they can come up with to scare us poor stupid voters. It's pretty obvious that the Administration and the SB want to build a school and they along with their supporters will do anything to get it done.

I say if you want a YES vote, just create more FUD. You could create your own forum and put all sorts of FUD and figures that support the YES vote conclusion. Topher created this forum, I'm sure Topher could tell us how to do it. Right Topher?

[Avenging Eagle]

kae said:

Well, I don't see much of anything new here. It seems like the same old FUD.

kae,

I can't see how everyone can just dismiss all points brought in these discussions as FUD. That's the easy way out of facing the issue in front of us.

The way I see it, we are all working within certain system constraints, and we need to figure out which path to take within the rules of the game. You may say that the game is not fair, or it is fixed, but it is "the only game in town" and the outcome affects our kids.

I used to say that the VoteYes people were in FantasyLand, but now I am seeing the VoteNo people take that same trip to Fantasyland. Its not a bad place to go, but when you come back to reality, your system is usually in shock. Also, the lines there are really long now with all those people over there. If anyone still wants to go, here is the link:

www.pacificsites.com/~drhoades/fantasy.htm

That's the problem with the updated VoteNo site right now. The CFO has proposed an alternate solution to the problem, but no matter how good it is, noone will listen and our kids will probably be placed in mega-schools with split shifts. You may call that FUD, but the fact you called it FUD is FUD itself.

Could you actually envision the SB saying "Well the referendum was voted down by 10% and now we will take the CFO's suggestion and run with it". I can't see that happening.

Or the people suggesting another site, can you see the board saying "OK lets go with the quarry site now". Please someone tell me that they think this might happen, and that we should vote down the referendum just in case this might happen.

I will continue to try to find out as many facts as possible, but at the moment, I believe that the only way to the 3rd high school is to pass the referendum. If it fails, they will probably go with the mega schools. That is the favorite right now. Do you have a dark horse scenario? Remember, I don't like betting on longshots.

Whenever someone mentions Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, I would ask you to tell me how we could possibly avoid it in our situation now.

Fear: There is always fear of the unknown.
Uncertainty: There is nothing certain right now, so this is a match.
Doubt: I doubt you will like my answer.