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Post by steckdad on Mar 9, 2009 22:23:27 GMT -6
This thread is a bit difficult to respond to. DrWho and Gatordog, you have both provided so much information that although I'd like to respond to your comments, I don't know where to start  . Many kids entering a sport gain a tremendous amount from participating with upperclassmen at the Varsity level as a freshman. I have a child that started her sport in 8th grade and ended the year on the Varsity team. It made her a much better athlete and one of two individuals to qualify at the state level for NVHS her sophomore year. Also, I believe this experience (both at the freshman and sophomore level) has made a huge difference to the colleges that she's applied to and those that have reached out to her. Simply put, had she not had the opportunity she had freshman year, she would be in a different position today in terms of where she is going to college. It saddens me to think there might be kids out there that will miss out in the opportunities she's had. Macy - you are correct. What we're talking about here is a few handfuls of kids who have a chance to play at a higher level later in life. I have posted before from the NCAA web site the odds of a D1 scholarship - they are relatively miniscule and reserved for the best of the best. in Basketball and volleyball approx 2% of varsity players as seniors get scholarships. I cannot remember soccer of the top of my head or else I'd quote it also- but want to be accurate. Mostly these are kids that already as freshman are dedicating 15-20 hours per week at the club level 8-9 months a year- then school season- and many with training programs for speed and agility etc. These kids eat and sleep their sports - and many of their best friends are other athletes. To tell them playing JV or Soph is the same as varsity - while every other player they play and train with has a different opportunity- and try and sell it as 'it's only 1 year' - just doesn't fly. Each of these kids is one ACL away from being done. And remember we are only doing this to team sport athletes - individual sport athletes are not facing this even at MVHS. They get the full opportunity. actually thee charts moved to 3% ( confirmed VB and BB about the same %) - www.ncaa.org/research/prob_of_competing/hey doc. I would love to find out(but the websites for WV and NV athletics load way too slow and have some issues) how many underclassmen played varsity sports between the two High Schools this year and then find out how many will be transferring to MV. I think this would give me better perspective on the situation. there is no debating that a kid that could make varsity as a freshman at MV would be SOL for two years. |
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 9, 2009 22:54:16 GMT -6
Macy - you are correct. What we're talking about here is a few handfuls of kids who have a chance to play at a higher level later in life. I have posted before from the NCAA web site the odds of a D1 scholarship - they are relatively miniscule and reserved for the best of the best. in Basketball and volleyball approx 2% of varsity players as seniors get scholarships. I cannot remember soccer of the top of my head or else I'd quote it also- but want to be accurate. Mostly these are kids that already as freshman are dedicating 15-20 hours per week at the club level 8-9 months a year- then school season- and many with training programs for speed and agility etc. These kids eat and sleep their sports - and many of their best friends are other athletes. To tell them playing JV or Soph is the same as varsity - while every other player they play and train with has a different opportunity- and try and sell it as 'it's only 1 year' - just doesn't fly. Each of these kids is one ACL away from being done. And remember we are only doing this to team sport athletes - individual sport athletes are not facing this even at MVHS. They get the full opportunity. actually thee charts moved to 3% ( confirmed VB and BB about the same %) - www.ncaa.org/research/prob_of_competing/hey doc. I would love to find out(but the websites for WV and NV athletics load way too slow and have some issues) how many underclassmen played varsity sports between the two High Schools this year and then find out how many will be transferring to MV. I think this would give me better perspective on the situation. there is no debating that a kid that could make varsity as a freshman at MV would be SOL for two years. I have been trying to piece together this info SD-- however there are differences between how each school populates the rosters on the althetics2000 web site that is powered by the Tribune . Some schools populate every sport at every level ( I wont name them but they are nearby) - and yet while NV does a very good job of roster population on the site - WVHS does not. Some sports ( girls vb / boys vb / girls BB nothing under varsity listed / have no roster info. Too early for soccer team rosters- although will have in a week or so hopefully ( I believe based on histoy the soccer teams will be the highest group) . I know I came up with 2 girls BB and 2 boys soccer with what I could get from the WVHS web site. . Not sure whose responsibility it is. I am trying to get info from other places as we speak and people are doing the same for girls lacrosse @ NV. www.athletics2000.com/nvhs/index.aspxwww.athletics2000.com/wvhs/index.aspxAnyone who has other thoughts it would be helpful as I can tell you - using the little info I have and what I can garner from newspaper articles and hand matchng it back to last years Granger & Hill directories, is no way to do this in 2009. I'm going to guess the number for : ( using current varsity-jv level pops) girls and boys soccer may total 6-10 girls and boys basketball 4 girls and boys volleyball 4 softball-baseball 6 other team sports 4 more this would be per class ( i.e. of 2012 and incoming 2013 )- and this would likely be an estimate on the high end. as not all freshman at WV now or incoming are scheduled to move. Then consider some will chose to move anyway - what % not sure. Also for soccer/baseball those are guesses of total fresh( and then incoming fresh) - how many of those scheduled to go to MV would be less. This is not an overflow crowd...and impact on overcrowding would be zip. Football by far the largest rosters, however also the sport least likely to produce frehsman varsity players... |
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Post by gatordog on Mar 10, 2009 11:07:53 GMT -6
This is by definition a team problem. If the lack of varsity sports at MV during the very first year is a significant issue, there needs to be a team solution.
For me, this discussion clearly shows that the best option available would be to have MV Adminstration work with Upstate 8 conference to start up with some varsity sports right away, where appropriate.
I think the idea of “August 2009 placement hearings for some very elite athletes” is not a good idea. It is not transparent. It gives preferential treatment to a select few. I think it too heavily addresses the wishes of some individuals, at the expense of other individuals, and is counter to the school- team concept.
Lets just assume, for arguments sake, an “absolutely perfect” hearing system could be devised by those coaches and adminstatrators behind closed doors. The net result would unmistakably be this:
Some number of varsity roster spots at WV would be taken up by these special attendance area exceptions. Then those that almost made the varsity, would be placed down on the appropriate JV, sophomore, or freshmen team. Then, with those lower level spots now occupied, there are some number of marginal or younger athletes that won’t even make these lower level teams.
Its this “chain reaction” that concerns me. I don’t like the idea of our athletic administrators chosing policy that has as its sole benefit the granting to a very high level team-sport athlete one more year of “the prestige and glory of chasing a varsity trophy or individual award” at the direct expense of the same number of marginal athletes not getting the opportunity at all to participate as a team member in the sport for their school.
I am just thinking about this, not from the varsity “star” level down, but from the marginal freshman or JV player up.
From the view point of all the players—including those at MV-- there is clearly one “win-win” solution. That is the one we should pursue if this varsity sports inequity is to be addressed.
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Post by Arch on Mar 10, 2009 11:24:43 GMT -6
Can they or can they not get all varsity sports online for Aug 2009 @ MV?
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 10, 2009 12:02:10 GMT -6
This is by definition a team problem. If the lack of varsity sports at MV during the very first year is a significant issue, there needs to be a team solution. For me, this discussion clearly shows that the best option available would be to have MV Adminstration work with Upstate 8 conference to start up with some varsity sports right away, where appropriate.I think the idea of “August 2009 placement hearings for some very elite athletes” is not a good idea. It is not transparent. It gives preferential treatment to a select few. I think it too heavily addresses the wishes of some individuals, at the expense of other individuals, and is counter to the school- team concept. Lets just assume, for arguments sake, an “absolutely perfect” hearing system could be devised by those coaches and adminstatrators behind closed doors. The net result would unmistakably be this: Some number of varsity roster spots at WV would be taken up by these special attendance area exceptions. Then those that almost made the varsity, would be placed down on the appropriate JV, sophomore, or freshmen team. Then, with those lower level spots now occupied, there are some number of marginal or younger athletes that won’t even make these lower level teams. Its this “chain reaction” that concerns me. I don’t like the idea of our athletic administrators chosing policy that has as its sole benefit the granting to a very high level team-sport athlete one more year of “the prestige and glory of chasing a varsity trophy or individual award” at the direct expense of the same number of marginal athletes not getting the opportunity at all to participate as a team member in the sport for their school. I am just thinking about this, not from the varsity “star” level down, but from the marginal freshman or JV player up. From the view point of all the players—including those at MV-- there is clearly one “win-win” solution. That is the one we should pursue if this varsity sports inequity is to be addressed. "For me, this discussion clearly shows that the best option available would be to have MV Adminstration work with Upstate 8 conference to start up with some varsity sports right away, where appropriate." GD - this would address the inequities and I agree would get MV off to a faster start without losing 'star' quality players... I will agree to disagree on parts of the rest -like I do believe with the number of athletes we'd be talking about making varsity at WV it is more than doable (like I have said they unofficially are doing that in their summer camps already - little extra effort - not a ton) - but my main goal is equity - so if that can be accomplished @ MVHS- then most of the discussion is resolved.now what about girls lacrosse @ NVHS. If the sport not added at WVHS and talking to someone who was working on that - it won't be now due to losing some athletes..offer a few exceptions if the students want them ? We're talking a handful here - and maybe they wouldn't even take them. just trying to make sure this is not a MV only deal- even though that's is where the majority of issues athletically are by nature of opening a new school. Focus has to be equitable for all... |
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Post by gatordog on Mar 10, 2009 13:56:01 GMT -6
but my main goal is equity - so if that can be accomplished @ MVHS- then most of the discussion is resolved. agreed. And if some method is tried to resolve the issue at WV....we must openly point out that there are costs. Girls lacrosse is a spring sport per to the web page I found for NV girls lacrosse. (I did not see a direct link from the NV athletic home page website). Isn't there still time (before spring 2010) for them to find or recruit more WV girls to participate? It is a big school. Again, instead of focusing on exceptions.....this would focus on expanding opportunity. I wish them luck in this startup effort. That would be cool. |
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Post by Arch on Mar 10, 2009 14:08:31 GMT -6
[ Girls lacrosse is a spring sport per to the web page I found for NV girls lacrosse. (I did not see a direct link from the NV athletic home page website). Isn't there still time (before spring 2010) for them to find or recruit more WV girls to participate? It is a big school. Again, instead of focusing on exceptions.....this would focus on expanding opportunity. I wish them luck in this startup effort. That would be cool. And if it doesn't happen, we're back to the need for exceptions. |
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 10, 2009 14:21:34 GMT -6
but my main goal is equity - so if that can be accomplished @ MVHS- then most of the discussion is resolved. agreed. And if some method is tried to resolve the issue at WV....we must openly point out that there are costs. Girls lacrosse is a spring sport per to the web page I found for NV girls lacrosse. (I did not see a direct link from the NV athletic home page website). Isn't there still time (before spring 2010) for them to find or recruit more WV girls to participate? It is a big school. Again, instead of focusing on exceptions.....this would focus on expanding opportunity. I wish them luck in this startup effort. That would be cool. Lacrosse is a 'club sport' like ice hockey and needs club support over and above school desire to have the sport. In talking to an involved parent- it takes a few years to secure the club commitment - they had been working on it but because their child will be moving to MV - this endth the discussion for now. girls teams in this area belong to Naperville Central / Naperville North / Neuqua Valley / Benet / Wheaton / St Charles / www.ihswla.org/ihswla/teams.htn |
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Post by gatordog on Mar 10, 2009 15:16:21 GMT -6
Lacrosse is a 'club sport' like ice hockey and needs club support over and above school desire to have the sport. In talking to an involved parent- it takes a few years to secure the club commitment - they had been working on it but because their child will be moving to MV - this endth the discussion for now. girls teams in this area belong to Naperville Central / Naperville North / Neuqua Valley / Benet / Wheaton / St Charles / www.ihswla.org/ihswla/teams.htn excellent info on the website, drwho. The Wheaton team is a "co-op" they call it with Wh-Warrenville S & Wh N players. The St Charles team is a co-op with St C East & North players. They should work on forming a lacrosse co-op between WV and MV. |
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Post by JB on Mar 10, 2009 15:57:30 GMT -6
Lacrosse is a 'club sport' like ice hockey and needs club support over and above school desire to have the sport. In talking to an involved parent- it takes a few years to secure the club commitment - they had been working on it but because their child will be moving to MV - this endth the discussion for now. girls teams in this area belong to Naperville Central / Naperville North / Neuqua Valley / Benet / Wheaton / St Charles / www.ihswla.org/ihswla/teams.htn excellent info on the website, drwho. The Wheaton team is a "co-op" they call it with Wh-Warrenville S & Wh N players. The St Charles team is a co-op with St C East & North players. They should work on forming a lacrosse co-op between WV and MV. IHSA seems pretty open to co-ops. If we allowed them between MV and WV, that would solve a lot of problems. A JV and V co-op, with Fr/soph teams at each school as needed would increase opportunities for all, and allow the truly competitive kids a chance to play at their level. You could phase it out when MV has Fr-Sr, and able to support its own team. |
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 10, 2009 16:00:12 GMT -6
Lacrosse is a 'club sport' like ice hockey and needs club support over and above school desire to have the sport. In talking to an involved parent- it takes a few years to secure the club commitment - they had been working on it but because their child will be moving to MV - this endth the discussion for now. girls teams in this area belong to Naperville Central / Naperville North / Neuqua Valley / Benet / Wheaton / St Charles / www.ihswla.org/ihswla/teams.htn excellent info on the website, drwho. The Wheaton team is a "co-op" they call it with Wh-Warrenville S & Wh N players. The St Charles team is a co-op with St C East & North players. They should work on forming a lacrosse co-op between WV and MV. Would make sense to me also. |
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Post by gatordog on Mar 11, 2009 12:36:17 GMT -6
IHSA seems pretty open to co-ops. If we allowed them between MV and WV, that would solve a lot of problems. A JV and V co-op, with Fr/soph teams at each school as needed would increase opportunities for all, and allow the truly competitive kids a chance to play at their level. You could phase it out when MV has Fr-Sr, and able to support its own team. jb, this is a great way of framing it. We were talking specifically about a girls lacrosse co-op (very doable, its seems). But you are suggesting.... .one could think about co-ops in other sports between WV and MV, as well.I was understanding drwho's idea of "athletic exceptions" as allowing a student to attend class at WV. But in reality, they would naturally attend MV , and then just come to WV for the sport. As a "one year co-op participant". (that was probably my misunderstanding, or jumping to wrong conclusion). OK, at least we have a semi-decent name for it now! But this co-op idea with IHSA is mostly (always?) about letting schools pool together in cases where they otherwise could not field a team. And I bet there approval is (mainly?) about demonstrating that otherwise you cant form a team. Clearly at WV, with large number of tryouts (and cuts as well), that is not the case! I could see the IHSA or UEC saying....."WV, with your excellent and powerful athletic programs, with the large number of students who tryout, with very strong presence of club athletes in many sports in your area.....YOU want to field co-op teams?" Let me give another crazy example, "WV, your girls soccer team has won two state championships in a row, and YOU want your girls team next year to have a co-op status?" When I think about it this way....I think the conference and/or IHSA may well have the reply of "Are you crazy?" But how about this idea: could MV team-sport athletes next year who want to play varsity, maybe play as "one year co-op participants" with another nearby, conference-member varsity.....East Aurora HS? (instead of WV)I could see less of the costs (that worried me at WV), primarily being the "domino" effect that it pushes (at the lower levels) the chance for some students to even make the team and dress-out for the Freshman/soph/JV teams. With smaller enrollments, less prevalence of club-sport players....I am guessing that some sports at EA have few to no cuts at these lower levels? If that's the case....you are not taking away the "play for your school" opportunity for any student there. Would this be an easier, more sensible co-op approval process to gain from UE8 and IHSA? We would be saying...."clearly, we are not in any way, form, or fashion giving a competitive advantage to WV". In fact, we are asking to willingly give competive advantage to a conference rival. I could see this being good publicity, on both sides. Maybe EA would gain some attention to their sports programs, from this unusual arrangement. And maybe our SD would get good publicity for doing this. (we could use a little of that, right?!) And for a highly motivated, top athlete from MV driven to have the varsity sports opportunity, I can see this being a very positive experience for them. And their one-season EA teammates, would share a positive experience, as well, I do believe. JB and drwho, you triggered this idea! So I just want to throw this out there. |
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Post by JB on Mar 11, 2009 12:54:47 GMT -6
Our SD has discretion within it's own borders; throwing another SD into the mix would really complicate things. Someone is going to get squeezed in either scenario - it's either a MV varsity player squeezing out a WV player from Varisty to JV (co-op), or a MV varsity caliber squeezing out someone from their Soph team. IMH/BO, I think kids who have dedicated several hours per week over the last several years should be allowed to play at their level. If a 1 year co-op arrangement can do that, I'd move in that direction.
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Post by doctorwho on Mar 11, 2009 13:06:02 GMT -6
IHSA seems pretty open to co-ops. If we allowed them between MV and WV, that would solve a lot of problems. A JV and V co-op, with Fr/soph teams at each school as needed would increase opportunities for all, and allow the truly competitive kids a chance to play at their level. You could phase it out when MV has Fr-Sr, and able to support its own team. jb, this is a great way of framing it. We were talking specifically about a girls lacrosse co-op (very doable, its seems). But you are suggesting.... .one could think about co-ops in other sports between WV and MV, as well.I was understanding drwho's idea of "athletic exceptions" as allowing a student to attend class at WV. But in reality, they would naturally attend MV , and then just come to WV for the sport. As a "one year co-op participant". (that was probably my misunderstanding, or jumping to wrong conclusion). OK, at least we have a semi-decent name for it now! But this co-op idea with IHSA is mostly (always?) about letting schools pool together in cases where they otherwise could not field a team. And I bet there approval is (mainly?) about demonstrating that otherwise you cant form a team. Clearly at WV, with large number of tryouts (and cuts as well), that is not the case! I could see the IHSA or UEC saying....."WV, with your excellent and powerful athletic programs, with the large number of students who tryout, with very strong presence of club athletes in many sports in your area.....YOU want to field co-op teams?" Let me give another crazy example, "WV, your girls soccer team has won two state championships in a row, and YOU want your girls team next year to have a co-op status?" When I think about it this way....I think the conference and/or IHSA may well have the reply of "Are you crazy?" But how about this idea: could MV team-sport athletes next year who want to play varsity, maybe play as "one year co-op participants" with another nearby, conference-member varsity.....East Aurora HS? (instead of WV)I could see less of the costs (that worried me at WV), primarily being the "domino" effect that it pushes (at the lower levels) the chance for some students to even make the team and dress-out for the Freshman/soph/JV teams. With smaller enrollments, less prevalence of club-sport players....I am guessing that some sports at EA have few to no cuts at these lower levels? If that's the case....you are not taking away the "play for your school" opportunity for any student there. Would this be an easier, more sensible co-op approval process to gain from UE8 and IHSA? We would be saying...."clearly, we are not in any way, form, or fashion giving a competitive advantage to WV". In fact, we are asking to willingly give competive advantage to a conference rival. I could see this being good publicity, on both sides. Maybe EA would gain some attention to their sports programs, from this unusual arrangement. And maybe our SD would get good publicity for doing this. (we could use a little of that, right?!) And for a highly motivated, top athlete from MV driven to have the varsity sports opportunity, I can see this being a very positive experience for them. And their one-season EA teammates, would share a positive experience, as well, I do believe. JB and drwho, you triggered this idea! So I just want to throw this out there. Kinda coming full circle- Too many problems with that as I see it - potential scheduling issues - playing on different days - transportation .and the fact that these kids know no one here...making this far more complex . Why would we want to do that to them- this is about equal opportunity. We're not sending the other 2/3 of 2009/2010 freshman athletes to schools far from home ? ( and no one wants me to get started on the commuting issues) - As a parent do I want to drive to East Aurora or West Aurora or Bartlett to see my kids play? I don't want to take the one part of the class that isn't getting a fair shot and give them a less than fair shot ? It's like these kids have a bullseye on their foreheads already and I feel bad for them This is why I suggested up front to let the student petition to change schools- because for the conference this is the cleanest change. Again we are talking about 25-40 kids maybe in 2009/10 MAX - why would East Aurora or anyone else want to get involved ? These kids are at WVHS today- if they stay there the changes on everyone are minimal |
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Post by gatordog on Mar 11, 2009 14:04:54 GMT -6
Too many problems with that as I see it - potential scheduling issues - playing on different days - transportation .and the fact that these kids know no one here... making this far more complex . ok, doc, I have to give out an exasperated sigh here....  You say there is too much complexity here because of calender scheduling, they wont know other kids, traveling a bit further, and all....yet you are willing to tolerate the complexity of 40 or so "athletic hearings" for current freshman (and incoming 8th graders!) to determine who does or does not merit the privilege of being awarded a special exception to stay at WV? Again, I am not sure if this is cleanest for the conference ( its granting a competitive advantage to WV, unprecedented, etc) Let me give a thinking-out-loud example, St Ch North may ask "we couldn't do this when we started up." WV/MV would reply "well, you didn't ask". Then St Ch North could reply "We were worried more about starting up a new athletic program and getting our team-sports completive in the UEC as soon as possible. We didn't have the gumption to try and get a completive advantage at St C E". Sorry for the paraphrase  , but I am just trying to see how the conference would view this. One final point (and it sounds like JB is with me on this), I think the parameters of this should be at the most considering one-year "exceptions" only. Once MV varsity opens up, there is absolutely no justification at all for a student in the MV attendance area to not play sports at MV. And they most certainly should be attending class next year at MV, no matter what, even if they play as a co-op athlete somewhere else. |
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, but I am just trying to see how the conference would view this.