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Post by doctorwho on Apr 13, 2011 20:12:17 GMT -6
Mac, Your comment below is perplexing to me. "One last thing, comparison to "other districts" and what they do is meaningless to me. Each district stands on its own and comparisons are, imo, apples and oranges unless you are speaking of a specific comparison versus generalities." When I compare items discussed on blue or in other arenas one of the first things I do is look at what other "like kind" districts are doing. This way I have a barometer to measure the topics being discussed. I assumed you would do the same, but then again, I do realize what happens to folks that assume. I do have a question regarding your mountain of research (which by the way I do appreciate), with all the waste you have brought forward regarding our fine district, do you have a # per year that it will affect the average taxpayer. $400 k is a pretty average valuation in the far south reaches of our district. I do realize that the district pushed out a lot of the debt, I was just curious how these ill repute actions are going to affect my pocketbook on a year to year basis. Dollar amount is not as important as a taxing factor. WOW, that kind of statement would make a Governor QUinn bulletin board- or Todd Stroger--"I don't care how much money they piss away because it only costs me x" - sorry SSSM- that last sentence made my head hurt. If we start with the $17M additional cost for the bond financing rate- and that number alone you want to see your fair share of.. then nothing anyone else is going to say is going to make a difference, and why we as a state are bankrupt. If the total is $25M but your tax impact is only $300 you are OK with that ? Instead of using the $25M towards educating our children- additional programs etc..it only cost me $300. Do you realize how ridiculous that statement sounds ? I'm just stunned...seriously - and coming from someone who preaches frugality. I mean they might as well be spending it on booze and gambling them because it only costs us each a little. And people are amazed at the voting apathy...I no longer am |
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Apr 13, 2011 20:33:42 GMT -6
Easy there big fella, You must have mistaken my home Doc. I never have political signs of any kind on my property. These type of signs are an utter waste, a complete eye sore, and a waste of energy and resources.
I stand by my question regarding the taxing effect per household for a number of reasons. First I suspect that it is a substantial number especially in light of the # of years involved. Second if folks knew the # maybe we could get more than a measely 10-12% to vote in mid term elections.
Doc, I have seen much of the brochures and literature put out in Napertucky.. .IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT IS IN IT FOR ME. Just look at the language in the last ref. Who by the way had the handy work to craft such a dandy piece of literature regarding pushing bonds out to eternity. From what I remember it went kind of like:"its just like refinancing your home" & "it is only fair that folks 10 + years out also pay".
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Post by Arch on Apr 13, 2011 20:49:45 GMT -6
And someone laughs their butts off as they put the fees and interest into their coffers over and over again.
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Post by Arch on Apr 13, 2011 21:06:58 GMT -6
For sh!ts and giggles, we can easily say that every 20K of 'waste' in the budget can turn into another special needs aide each year. I'd even bet that's a very high figure and each one doesn't cost that much. This was from a simple calculation of 12 bucks an hour * 7 hours each school day * 180 school days and then padded a few K for 'overhead'.
The 19 million over the referendum on MVHS would buy 950 aide years (think of it as man hours but man years) for the district before even beginning to calculate interest and premiums paid or still owed on that 19 million.
Rather than what it costs each household, let's talk about what it costs OUR STUDENTS. OK?
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Post by doctorwho on Apr 13, 2011 21:17:21 GMT -6
Easy there big fella, You must have mistaken my home Doc. I never have political signs of any kind on my property. These type of signs are an utter waste, a complete eye sore, and a waste of energy and resources. I stand by my question regarding the taxing effect per household for a number of reasons. First I suspect that it is a substantial number especially in light of the # of years involved. Second if folks knew the # maybe we could get more than a measely 10-12% to vote in mid term elections. Doc, I have seen much of the brochures and literature put out in Napertucky.. .IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT IS IN IT FOR ME. Just look at the language in the last ref. Who by the way had the handy work to craft such a dandy piece of literature regarding pushing bonds out to eternity. From what I remember it went kind of like:"its just like refinancing your home" & "it is only fair that folks 10 + years out also pay". it was a virtual sign SSSM- as you clearly stated he was on your ballot. and I stand by the fact that how much it costs each of us is a terrible measuring stick. Just because we give them money to spend doesn't mean if they waste it it's OK. You said yourself we pay help crap here- think how much help we copuld buy . Think how much tutoring could be done - maybe extra work and classes to be competitive ACT wise with the school districts our leaders like to use when referencing how little we spend comparatively. The money pissed away in the whole BB-MVHS fiasco would pay for many things long beyond when either you or I live here..truly Springfield level waste |
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Post by doctorwho on Apr 13, 2011 21:20:27 GMT -6
Easy there big fella, You must have mistaken my home Doc. I never have political signs of any kind on my property. These type of signs are an utter waste, a complete eye sore, and a waste of energy and resources. I stand by my question regarding the taxing effect per household for a number of reasons. First I suspect that it is a substantial number especially in light of the # of years involved. Second if folks knew the # maybe we could get more than a measely 10-12% to vote in mid term elections. Doc, I have seen much of the brochures and literature put out in Napertucky.. .IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT IS IN IT FOR ME. Just look at the language in the last ref. Who by the way had the handy work to craft such a dandy piece of literature regarding pushing bonds out to eternity. From what I remember it went kind of like:"its just like refinancing your home" & "it is only fair that folks 10 + years out also pay". unfortunately more than a few people initially made decisions on what appeared to be facts..and turned out to be bold faced lies. Remember this all started with the bullshit 10,400 projection ( after an 8800 projection just a year earlier).--That 10,400 projected into 11,000+ by this time. IF that had actually have been true much of what happened would be justified. NOT the way it happened- hiring PR firms to piut area vs area..back door deals with some areas --and secret agendas of those put in positions to help educate our kids, not power brokering. Also doesn't excuse the placement of the high school onto an area with severe safety concerns seemingly everywhere but in Illinois. All of this was again known before moving forward- even if one wants to claim some of the SB members were duped also. One clearly wasn't and the other boards members went out of their way to discredit what she had to say- and she turned out to be dead on. Maybe because she was part of the team that worked long and hard to come up with the 8800-8900 number and knew they were right. So everything that followed was based on this major lie.... if you're looking for a mea cupla on my 'original' thoughts- I have long since been down that road. I too for a short time believed that people who served on a SB were always in it for the kids and the taxpayers, why would they do anything counter to that?-- my education was quick and eye opening however...sad to say. I wish it was truly different- really I do...but the crap that was pulled here should never happen anywhere. |
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Post by Arch on Apr 13, 2011 21:29:58 GMT -6
Just think, in a couple of years a lot of the bond payments would have gone byebye and there was a very good chance your property tax bill would have actually gone down once that dropped away. But No, they were all refinanced for another 20 years.
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Post by macrockett on Apr 13, 2011 21:53:34 GMT -6
Mac, Your comment below is perplexing to me. "One last thing, comparison to "other districts" and what they do is meaningless to me. Each district stands on its own and comparisons are, imo, apples and oranges unless you are speaking of a specific comparison versus generalities." When I compare items discussed on blue or in other arenas one of the first things I do is look at what other "like kind" districts are doing. This way I have a barometer to measure the topics being discussed. I assumed you would do the same, but then again, I do realize what happens to folks that assume. I do have a question regarding your mountain of research (which by the way I do appreciate), with all the waste you have brought forward regarding our fine district, do you have a # per year that it will affect the average taxpayer. $400 k is a pretty average valuation in the far south reaches of our district. I do realize that the district pushed out a lot of the debt, I was just curious how these ill repute actions are going to affect my pocketbook on a year to year basis. Dollar amount is not as important as a taxing factor. Pushed out a lot of debt is an understatement. From 2008 to 2010 principal didn't change. Compare the FYEs in the audited financials. In addition we paid around $17 million, or are in the process of paying $17 million more in interest, that we would not otherwise have to, as a result of the early issuances of the bonds and the $8 million in premiums. And here is a bonus for you. At the same time Metzger was telling us we couldn't afford the additional $15 million for Brach Brodie, he and JC were accumulating that interest and premiums in the bank... the approximate figure I just requested, so see how much was accumulated by the end of the condemnation suit in late September. Remember Metzger said we couldn't afford it then? Then three months later, in January 2008 the District introduced the budget for MVHS at .....? $143k or so....$19 million over referendum and $4 million over the additional cost of BB. Bait and switch indeed! Here is another bonus. Today, we could stick all the kids at MVHS back into the WVHS gold campus and they would just about fit. We didn't need another middle school. You should see the figures on those now, per CV. So to get to your original point, between interest and principal, as I have said all along we paid about $95 million above what it would have cost to build an addition for 750 seats at NVHS (adding a south hallway to the wings) and build another middle school which we didn't need (so I have padded even the $95 million figure, it could be up to $40 million more). Total for MVHS is about $143 million principal and about $70 million interest. Take the $95 million and take your EAV over total for the district found in several different documents and that is your portion. And don't forget the $3.5+ million you pay out annually for operating costs of MVHS. It is a giant sucking sound of fiscal irresponsibility, especially considering in 10 years max we will be back to 2008 levels of HS students. |
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Post by macrockett on Apr 13, 2011 22:00:55 GMT -6
For sh!ts and giggles, we can easily say that every 20K of 'waste' in the budget can turn into another special needs aide each year. I'd even bet that's a very high figure and each one doesn't cost that much. This was from a simple calculation of 12 bucks an hour * 7 hours each school day * 180 school days and then padded a few K for 'overhead'. The 19 million over the referendum on MVHS would buy 950 aide years (think of it as man hours but man years) for the district before even beginning to calculate interest and premiums paid or still owed on that 19 million. Rather than what it costs each household, let's talk about what it costs OUR STUDENTS. OK? That is exactly how I look at it. Unless you think resources run to infinity. edit to say, exactly Arch, that is how I look at it. A $ spent on things not needed, rather than people and programs that educate our children is a $ wasted. |
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Post by southsidesignmaker on Apr 14, 2011 10:56:49 GMT -6
Mac,
Your statement "Here is another bonus. Today, we could stick all the kids at MVHS back into the WVHS gold campus and they would just about fit. We didn't need another middle school. You should see the figures on those now, per CV."
Does this mean that you feel the district not only did not need a third high school but there also was not a need for the additional middle school. Or are you just quoting CV?
Please realize that one of the middle schools that have experienced the largest enrollment is in your "neck of the woods".
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Post by macrockett on Apr 14, 2011 12:21:14 GMT -6
Mac, Your statement "Here is another bonus. Today, we could stick all the kids at MVHS back into the WVHS gold campus and they would just about fit. We didn't need another middle school. You should see the figures on those now, per CV." Does this mean that you feel the district not only did not need a third high school but there also was not a need for the additional middle school. Or are you just quoting CV? Please realize that one of the middle schools that have experienced the largest enrollment is in your "neck of the woods". We moved here at the end of 2004. The last major subdivision development in D204 I believe. From that time till my youngest daughter left Scullen in May 2010, it had up to 250 more kids that the advertised 1200. There were also two mobiles (but they certainly didn't hold 250 kids). Yet no one I am aware of was raising hell about the "massive over crowding." People just went with the flow. We maxed out at the MS level in 2007/8 and even tho we have another middle school, we have less kids than we had then. It's all right there on the enrollment #s. 6800 Middle Schoolers now, for 8400 seats winsome.cnchost.com/MAC/)_2010_11_ENROLLMENT_REPORT_022811.pdf 6862 9/30/10 winsome.cnchost.com/MAC/2009_10_ENROLLMENT_REPORT_093009.pdf 6866 9/30/09 winsome.cnchost.com/MAC/2008_09ENROLLMENTREPORT112508.pdf 6917 9/30/08 winsome.cnchost.com/MAC/2007-08_ENROLLMENT_REPORT[1].pdf 7026 MS on 9/30/07 6883 on 9/30/06 Did we have to do something to adjust capacity? Yes. Did we need to spend $143 million for a third HS and create another MS? Please. So create 725 seats at NVHS along with a south hallway connecting the wings. Make some adjustments to WVHS, including perhaps a bridge over 34 and over eola at $3 million each, and you work through the bubble years where in 2019 you are back to 08 levels at the HS, and you save a ton of money (as I said, conservatively $65 mill in principal and $35mill in interest, move no one, save $3.5 million annually on administration. So instead of $350 million in debt when you are peaking (2013, 2 years from now) you have a much more manageable financial situation. Now we will be unwinding what we did in some form for the next decade. Closings and consolidations to follow. Frontier is already going in 2012 when the lease is up as far as I am aware. |
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Post by brant on Apr 14, 2011 15:05:36 GMT -6
I would like to throw something out here and would like feedback. I believe the SD could have handled the overcrowding for almost next to nothing. I don't know if any of you knew of WVs original interior design. I was actually in the building for a basketball game the second or third year it was opened. WV design was of a 1970s idea that turned out to be completely impractical. There were very few walls in the school and the classrooms were divided by partitions. I have talked to former graduates from WV in those years and I have been to two other school identical to WV. (they were out West)
Though a bad idea, it could have worked to temporarily ease overcrowding. The areas in WV and NV where the indoor tracks were would have done very nicely with temporary classrooms divided by partitions like when WV opened. And the chairs and partitions could have been removed went the track areas were needed. As Arch once suggested, used lockers could have been brought in. True it would have been awkward but WV was build on that idea. Just a thought.
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