Sniff Tests - HS Main Capacities

[JB]

According to CFO, WVHS Main can hold 3,795 sardines kids.

Oct. 31, 2005 enrollment at WVHS Main was 2,502 students.
How on earth can WVHS hold 50% more students than it currently does

If you've ever been there during school hours, you know this is only possible under a nightmare scenario.

The CFO number just doesn't pass the sniff test - it stinks.

Vote NO - to the Sardine Option

[momof3]

I think the crazy capacity numbers being pushed in the CFO literature may actually backfire on them. My neighbor and I were talking about the numbers on the flyer (IMO, anyone that's done a shred of research can easily refute every number). She hadn't done any research, but just said "This doesn't seem right... how can you force kids to go to COD? What does it matter how many can fit in the freshman center if they can't fit as sophmores in the high school? I also informed her that the "numbers" for the high school were based on partial kids in each room every day, all day. So, hopefully it will cause some to question and figure out the truth.

[momof3]

UPDATE: The CFO website has taken down the document that "proves" WV can hold 3795. So now they are just repeating repeating repeating repeating repeating that same completely overcapacity number hoping... what? Somebody will buy it? Like I said before, I think that group has no interest whatsoever in solving the problems we are facing. Whatever misinformation necessary to achieve their NO agenda.

Oh, sorry, apparently it's not where it was yesterday. There they are, my .7 and .9 friends.

[blankcheck]

CFO is just stating that according to documents filed by our district under the Illinois Board of Education available capacity worksheets, that WV has an available capasity using all rooms (except lunchrooms & hallways) of 3759 students. If you are saying that student enrollment figures from Oct 2005 were 2502 students, that means that school is operating at 67% capasity. Well under the 90% optimal capasity.

[admin]

Stop the statistical spin.

[blankcheck]

How am I spinning it? JB pointed out what the enrollment at WV was, I'm just pointing out what that figure is using the district's own worksheet. BTW - I'm starting to feel old, I actually moved up to sophomore.

[admin]

that WV has an available capacity using all rooms (except lunchrooms & hallways) of 3759 students.

That is a statistic point of right before NV opened. Hell you probably could have put 1000 more kids in you taught in the football stands , baseball dugouts and the such.

Hey wait, that just might be VoteNo's next plan that they attempt to fling onto the wall.

I can see it now

No additions needed! WV an NV alone can hold 14,000 student apiece. VoteNo says get rid of band, gym, science labs, computer labs. If we rid the HS of these single purpose rooms, we can get more classrooms for the kids.
We can prepare them for the unique experience of seeing what a 300 student college classroom is like by holding sophomore lit classes in the auditorium. Football stands lack of a roof is a bonus for the astronomy labs. Botany will take full advantage of the actual football and baseball field by holding the unique class in the field.

[soxfan]

I have a few questions maybe someone (both sides please) can answer on enrollment. I've been confused by the information both sides are claiming.

What is the total capacity number for both schools?

I've heard 8400. Can someone break that down for me as to what each school (NVHS main, NVHS gold, WVHS main, WVHS gold) can accomodate at 100%?

Also, I'm confused as to why the district is now looking at filling schools at the 85% of capacity level. Wasn't the last referendum dealing with a 90% capacity level?

Also, how many students are currently at each school?

I've heard conflicting numbers on this as well from BOTH sides.

[admin]

Soxfan that is my point of all this discussion. We have so many "capacity numbers" floating around that it doesn't make sense.

We have capacity called optimal, the STR every square inch capacity, the grant worksheet capacity that the Illinois Government sets not 204.

Until we work as a group, and find the answers to the definitions to all the capacities definitions, everything else is spin or INTENT TO CAUSE DISINFORMATION.

[soxfan]

admin said:

Soxfan that is my point of all this discussion. We have so many "capacity numbers" floating around that it doesn't make sense.

We have capacity called optimal, the STR every square inch capacity, the grant worksheet capacity that the Illinois Government sets not 204.

Until we work as a group, and find the answers to the definitions to all the capacities definitions, everything else is spin or INTENT TO CAUSE DISINFORMATION.

Topher,

Exactly why I asked the question. I've found all the capacity numbers being thrown around have done nothing but cloud my head. I found the letter Howie sent out to be confusing. I can't find the numbers I'm looking for on the ipsd.org site. If the are there, I can't find them.

I do remember hearing something about 8400 being maximum and 90% utilization at 7560.

I have heard arguments stating that the frosh campuses can hold more than the district is stating. Not that I believe that, but can't find the breakdown in building that I'm looking for.

Help

[momof3]

soxfan,
these are the honest to goodness capacity numbers as I understand them. I am not trying to spin, and these are only numbers on paper, that disregard the different configurations of each building.

NV = Every square inch occupied @ 100% of the day = 3223 * .93 (realistic capacity) = 2997
NV Gold = NV capacity divided by 3, because you need to have room for them at NV = 999
WV = Every square inch occupied @ 100% of the day = 3759 *.93 (realistic capacity) = 3495
WV Gold = WV capacity divided by 3, because you need to have room for them at WV = 1165
Grand total = 8656
I am assuming the gold campuses are capacity restrained by the high schools, in other words, it doen't do you any good to fit, whatever, 1500 kids in the freshman campus if you can't fit 1500*3 in the high school. You could get away with one bigger than average class but you can't plan on it.
Now, I understand that the district total is 8400 and it's because they use slightly different "realistic" figures for each building because I believe HC stated that we have a lot of experience operating these buildings at different numbers, and we know what "works." (Anyone who had kids at WV either the year before NV opened, or had kids at either school the year before the gold campuses opened can probably attest to that.) Due to the years of add-ons, WV's space is not laid out as efficiently and "works" at a lower capacity than 93% and non-added-on-to NV "works" at a slightly higher capacity.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[soxfan]

Thank you Momof3

I really appreciate that information.

Why isn't that clearly communicated on the ipsd.org site?

It should be.

I agree with all you wrote.

[warriorpride]

momof3 said:

soxfan,
these are the honest to goodness capacity numbers as I understand them. I am not trying to spin, and these are only numbers on paper, that disregard the different configurations of each building.

NV = Every square inch occupied @ 100% of the day = 3223 * .93 (realistic capacity) = 2997
NV Gold = NV capacity divided by 3, because you need to have room for them at NV = 999
WV = Every square inch occupied @ 100% of the day = 3759 *.93 (realistic capacity) = 3495
WV Gold = WV capacity divided by 3, because you need to have room for them at WV = 1165
Grand total = 8656
I am assuming the gold campuses are capacity restrained by the high schools, in other words, it doen't do you any good to fit, whatever, 1500 kids in the freshman campus if you can't fit 1500*3 in the high school. You could get away with one bigger than average class but you can't plan on it.
Now, I understand that the district total is 8400 and it's because they use slightly different "realistic" figures for each building because I believe HC stated that we have a lot of experience operating these buildings at different numbers, and we know what "works." (Anyone who had kids at WV either the year before NV opened, or had kids at either school the year before the gold campuses opened can probably attest to that.) Due to the years of add-ons, WV's space is not laid out as efficiently and "works" at a lower capacity than 93% and non-added-on-to NV "works" at a slightly higher capacity.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The bolded part above is key: people can discuss the measurements of every room in each HS an apply some factor to detemine maximum, optional, and 10 other different kinds of capacity, but then there's also "what works".

The adminitrators at each school know what works. The forms that everyone has seen seem to be based on pure measurements, with some different factors applied based on some characteristics of the room. The forms don't take into account what works. In addition, each room can't realistically be used at "maximum" or even "optimal" capacity for each period of the day. Some classe are, or need to be smaller, than the much-hearalded "optimal" capacity.

from www.ipsd.org/newsevents/news_item_detail.asp?id=10612 :

"In 1996-97, Waubonsie Valley housed all of the district's high school students the year before Neuqua Valley opened with freshmen and sophomores. During this year, Waubonsie Valley housed almost 3,600 students because we had no other place for them. Classes were held in offices, computer labs, the auditorium, LMC and cafeteria. Students had lunch during 6 of the 8 periods. The hallways were overcrowded, a third of the lockers were shared, and class sizes grew to 34 students and above.
"

Ok, so nobody can refute that the WV Main campus held almost 3600 for 1 year. Nobody can refute the conditions that HC listed either. This is not a veiled threat - these are facts - WV hasn't has any additions since 1997. So, its "capacity" (whatever that means to you) hasn't changed.

And I sure as heck don't want my kids going throught that for 1,2,3 or 4 years. I wonder if anyone from CFO has kids that would go to WV? If so, you'd better be careful what you're asking for.

[proschool]

Here is what I understand about capacities:


This is a response that i got back from Donna Crawford in June 2005 regarding elementary capacities.

850 schools are designed for 5 classrooms at each grades 1-5 and 3 for kindergarten (28 total). 650 schools are designed for 4 classrooms at each grade 1-5 and 2 for kindergarten (22 total). In addition to the grade level/kindergarten classroom space, schools also need/utilize classrooms for the following activities and services: Music rooms, art rooms, special education rooms, project arrow rooms, reading improvement rooms, bilingual and/or ELL rooms. Class sizes are now calculated at maximum of 27 students K-2 and 30 students 3-5.


The elementary numbers 950 schools, 850 schools etc. don't work out exactly. They go back to my notes from the last boundary committee. Since then they decided to grow the maximum class sizes. I just think that they are numbers that have been around there for a long time. Some of my numbers were corrected by other posters but I think that the numbers that I had in my latest boundary proposals were correct since nobody bothered to correct me anymore.

Arch mentions that May Watts is really not a true 850 school because when the addition was added there were no accommodations in certain rooms like the gymnasium or the cafeteria. That was discussed during the boundary committee as well. Watts is really more of a 650 school than an 850 school. The extra classrooms are used for special needs kids from across the district who stay in the classroom all day.


Middle school numbers are a little trickier. The larger middle schools have been considered 1100. Gregory and Hill have been considered 900. I believe all of these have had many more students at one time or another. I think it is accepted that at 1100 the schools start getting uncomfortable. When middle schools go beyond "capacity" Howie prefers to put the pressure on the larger schools because he says they withstand a few extra students better than Hill or Gregory.

I don't know a thing about the high schools but it seems to be the case that when there are 3000 students in either main building things get to be very uncomfortable and adjustments need to be made that the administrator will rather not make.

The Freshman campuses seem to do Okay at 1100 students from what I hear.

[warriorpride]

Thanks Proschool. These numbers are fairly close to what the SB is using. This hits on what I've been saying: the by-the-book measurements of each room in each building do not take into account the wide range of needs that exist - from handing kids with special needs, to teaching classes that don't have the "maximum" or even "optimal" number of kids in them, to providing a wide range of classes and programs that may not make make optimal use of every square inch of every building.

Classes & programs will be sacrificed and/or cut as the schools get crowded towards "maximum" capacity.