Yes vs NO

[kae]

I'm not dismissing everything discussed here. I'm dismissing this:

Time to heal the wounds and get a yes vote / The No vote will be out there. / What should we do to get that yes vote?

There have been quite a few points brought up here that have been dismissed. One in particular was brought up by cantretirehere and what about the elementary school that is slated to go far beyond capacity (Builta) and now an elementary school that isn't even going to open because there isn't enough students.

Yes, we have certain system constraints put upon us by the SB/Admins. The path we're being led down is the only path to take within the rules of the game. It's the only "path" because that's the only path that the SB would allow the Community Forums to look at and that was "BUILD A 3rd HIGH SCHOOL OR FACE SPLIT SHIFTS, ETC.". The rules of the game were vote for a 3rd high school or face the consequences.

Frankly, I don't see how anyone can say CFO was spreading FUD. Is it Fear to say, "Let's look at some alternatives?" Is it uncertain to say, "I don't think the SB has looked at other alternatives?" Isn't it common knowledge that the community forum was told that they could only look at a few options? The only Doubt I see is the doubt that the SB looked very hard at any option.

I'm pretty certain that it is Fear to say "If you don't vote for this referendum we will have split shifts, our home values will decline, your kids will have classes in the hallways". I'm pretty sure it's spreads uncertainty to say, "we won't look at other possible solutions, but if this doesn't pass we don't know what to do." If fear isn't there let's create it. Where is the proof that our home values will decline if we have split shifts. It has to be out there on the Internet somewhere. If it's out there Stinks, I'm sure you'll find it. Hey, if it's not out there, create it. (Do you see what I mean? What is that? If that's not FUD, then what are you talking about?)

This district is a rich district. 204 has gotten every dollar they've asked for in the past. With the amount that EAV has risen in the past five years, it's no surprise that people finally said "NO!"

I fully expect that if the referendum fails that the school board will bring it up again next year. They'll hire another consulting firm to PR us again. This board has a one track mind, yes you are right, they will not look at any other solution. They are not going to say, "Oh well, it failed so now lets implement a CFO suggestion." And you're going to tell me that your solution to that is to say: "Well the SB is too stupid to consider any other options so I'm going to support their overindulgence and vote yes to give them all the money they want."

You do know that the SB is coming back in 2009 and asking for more money. You do know that right?

If this referendum fails, the SB will probably just keep putting it on the ballot until 2009, when they'll roll the building of the 3rd HS into the request for more money for the Education fund and then the total will be $300 million ($150M for the HS and $150M for the Education Fund). Is there some FUD in there for ya? I don't know what the SB is going to ask for for the Education Fund and they won't tell me either, but I bet it isn't going to be small.

You may call that FUD, but the fact you called it FUD is FUD itself.

Now that's rich. That doesn't even make sense. There's no Fear, there's no Uncertainty, there's only doubt. I doubt that a 3rd HS is the only solution. I am beginning to doubt that this board is really looking for a solution more than it is giving into the School Board (giving into that FUD that is spread by the SB and their 204thekids PAC).

No, Topher, I don't know what happened to the CFO forum. No, I don't belong to CFO. Never have, Never will. I'm just a NO voter, but you people seem to forget who has the money. It's not CFO. CFO doesn't have any money. They're just a bunch of people that aren't happy with the SB's decision. It's 204thekids that has all the money. 204thekids are the ones that get all the PTA money, the money from Laidlaw, the money from Sodexho, the money from the SB's lawyers, the money from Timber Creek, the money from MACOM (although they might not get that now). 204thekids are the ones that have the big celebration bashes paid for by the PAC. I doubt that CFO has bashes, he|| CFO can't even hardly pay for flyers, while Vote YES gets all the advertisements free. PAID for by our tax dollars. Yes, the school board gets to promote it's own agenda with our tax dollars. Will county has spoken on that issue and Stinks gave it a seal of approval.

Or the people suggesting another site, can you see the board saying "OK lets go with the quarry site now". Please someone tell me that they think this might happen, and that we should vote down the referendum just in case this might happen.

Who gives a rats * where the "site" is? . Oh yeah, I forgot, everyone hates Aurora, so I guess it better not be there. What? You don't say, the 3rd high school site is in Aurora? How did that happen? Stinks, how could you let that happen?

Yeah, I know CFO likes to point out how that's a prime spot for another strip mall. Who cares, we're Naperville, we're rich, we live in big monstrous homes on postage stamp sized lots (it's like track homes for the rich and famous, except we're not that rich and not at all famous).

I will continue to try to find out as many facts as possible, but at the moment, I believe that the only way to the 3rd high school is to pass the referendum.

Huh? Of course the only way to the 3rd high school is to pass the referendum. Duh! That's what the referendum is for. It's to build a new high school. If all you want is a 3rd high school, then say that.

If it fails, they will probably go with the mega schools.

I thought the school board is going for split shifts? Jeez, I wish they'd make up their minds. It's Friday, it must be mega schools. It's Monday, it's split shifts today.

That Fear, Uncertainty, and doubt is caused by the goof balls we have for SB/Admins.

All I hear is:

VOTE FOR EDUCATION!
VOTE FOR EDUCATION!

This isn't a vote for education. It's a vote for poor management, poor planning and more of it.

[forthekids]

It is unfortunate that the NO voters keep bringing up the same tired arguments. Other options were looked at (split shifts being the one that will probably be implemented if the referendum fails), other sites were considered. It's just the NO voters don't want to acknowledge that the SB may have been doing their jobs. NO voters don't want to spend the money for the kids, they just want to believe the worst about the SB and throw into their faces mistakes that have been made in the past (by other school board members, who aren't even on the board now). Implementing split shifts will still mean that we have mega high schools, the kids will just be in the building at different times. The schools are overcrowded now, there is more growth to come. Those are the facts. We have to live with those facts and deal with those facts.

[gatormom]

If you truly believe that if the ref. fails that the SB is going to bring it out year after year until they get it passed, are you not admitting that at some point we will need it? At what point will the public get it and will there be affordable land available to build on? At some point in the future, I believe sooner than later, the overcrowding will lead to mega schools requiring split shifts. Is that what we want for our children?

[Arch]

It's just like Court.

Burden of proof is on the one asking for action.

If the whole jury isn't convinced then possibly there's something not entirely right w/ the evidence or that which is being presented.

[fence]

Kae, don't be upset that your EAV went up - be HAPPY! This area is more than happy to reap the rewards of their upwardly mobile values, but that comes with the requirement that we pay attention to what investments might necessary to protect those values. That means paying very close attention to what is important to the segment of people the area attracts. If an area is a family area, the single most important thing you need to protect is the image of your education systems.

I am not saying blindly give whoever whatever they want, but I am saying that in terms of a priority, there should really be nothing greater than the education quality of this district.

That means when we talk about this stuff, I am personally not open whatsoever to any sub-par solutions, I don’t agree with the “art on a cart” mentality, and I understand that there are building and operating expenses associated with investing in a new school. I believe we have an enrollment boom. I believe we need the space. I don’t believe that the SB created a referendum because they’re all bored sadists that want to screw with us.

I'm not saying that any SB has done a perfect job, but I don’t believe that this district is really making this all up because they all needed something to do with all their free time. So when I consider my choices for the best education scenario for 9500 kids, I can spend $125M to build a HS, plus pay the operating expenses to run that school, OR spend probably 1/2 that to build and operate a new middle school and then build and operate an addition to one of the largest schools in the state. Or I could potentially be looking at split-shifts – you just never know. Split shifts are done elsewhere because it is one of the easiest things to implement, not because school district administrators are mean, evil fear mongers. In my perspective, a 3rd HS is the best of all the options, albeit the most expensive.

In terms of taxes, I've looked around at the surrounding areas to see what's what. Plainfield, Oswego, Batavia, Geneva, St. Charles – OUTRAGEOUS. I know 203 is less than ours. But there are other areas that are much higher, so I keep all that in perspective.

Also, I think the issue of Peterson/Builta was discussed - I think that its a little too premature to be freaking out about the school not opening. If it takes 5 years for it to be full, I don't understand why that's a huge issue. Unless there's a massive group of kids being housed somewhere else just waiting, there is no elem. school that would really be full on day one. Or year one, or year two. The school was built for the new growth and the plan was to move the kids from Wheatland. I think that still is the plan. Builta will be full with that huge Bolingbrook sub under development where everything is named after golf.... Can't remember the name. I am having a hard time figuring out what is the big emergency?

It just seems that people are getting alarmed on both sides for no reason. You don't need every school to be on portables before the thought crosses your mind to build a new one. At some point someone needs to look into the future. That is all that’s being done.

Having said all of that, there are people asking for the full details from the SB in regards to cost comparisons, enrollment analysis, financial modeling, etc. I think if a resident is asking for that level of detail, it should be given to them. Not everyone needs to see it, but there are some people that can’t make this decision without that info, and I respect that.

[stinks]

archwinsome said:

It's just like Court.

Burden of proof is on the one asking for action.

If the whole jury isn't convinced then possibly there's something not entirely right w/ the evidence or that which is being presented.

Yeah, a kangaroo court.

The prosecution puts on their case and the defense puts their fingers in their ears and says "blah-la-la-la-la" so consistently and loudly that the jury can't figure out what the prosecution is saying.

[stinks]

kae,

First, stop attacking me. This is not the CFO board. I'm just a concerned parent that isn't as concerned about my wallet as I am about what's good for the district. I have no power to change or influence anything to do with the referendum.

You call this a rich district, which is what I used to think as well. But clearly it's not true--at least not as a sweeping statement. We've obviously reached a critical mass for a significant part of the population. For that reason, among others, I'd like to see the referendum pass so that people that truly care about the district will stay on, and those that don't will feel compelled to move. It sounds harsh, but that's the decision people make anyway in deciding where to live.

You don't really understand the concept of FUD. In it's most simplest sense, it is taking good data that makes logical sense and then twisting it and interpreting it in ways that raise FUD in the minds of those that are trying to make a decision. The CFO has and is doing that. No matter what the SB says, the CFO refutes. No matter what solution the SB provides, the CFO twists it so that people become unnecessarily concerned. That's FUD.

Common sense says that a district that has overcrowded non-tradition education methods will be less desirable for families than ones that don't. You take 203 and you take 204 with split shifts and overcrowding, and all else being equal, where would you choose to live? It's really common sense. No empirical evidence needed.

Shrill rantings hardly do your cause justice.

[admin]

Everyone, stop the personal attacks. I will ban people no matter what side you are on if this continues.

[title1parent]

Just a perspective from a HS teacher's point of view, teaching in large classrooms is very difficult. Fees for consumables will increase for supply budgets. Some areas of curriculum may have to be changed/left out to fit the numbers. Packing kids into a CHem lab is dangerous.

Split shifts will limit amount of curriculum taught.

Kids with learning disabilities will struggle even more.

[stinks]

title1parent said:

Just a perspective from a HS teacher's point of view, teaching in large classrooms is very difficult. Fees for consumables will increase for supply budgets. Some areas of curriculum may have to be changed/left out to fit the numbers. Packing kids into a CHem lab is dangerous.

Split shifts will limit amount of curriculum taught.

Kids with learning disabilities will struggle even more.

It's really all very intuitive isn't it? It seems clear that education will suffer in one way or another. I think maybe WVHS Parent and fence have suggested good alternatives previously, but those IIRC require a shift in thinking. Nothing wrong wioth requiring a shift. But, the problem is that we don't have the time. And, if we really do need another HS, we need to it with the thought that people have known the traditional way of schooling for a long time and are most comfortale with that and will most likely accept that.

I believe CFO proposes interim kludges that cost less but will potentially negatively affect the education of the kids and harm the district and its reputation.

[Arch]

And there lies the differences of opinion on what the 'outcome' of any proposed solution will be. Welcome to debate and voting. No one in the District should sit this one out.

[kae]

It is unfortunate that the NO voters keep bringing up the same tired arguments. Other options were looked at (split shifts being the one that will probably be implemented if the referendum fails), other sites were considered.

I could say that the YES voters (I really think it's the 204thekids PAC people) keep bringing up the same tired arguments too. More FUD.

Very few other options were looked at. The only options on the table were split shifts, magnet schools, and a 3rd high school. All other options were "off" the table by the school board.

It's just the NO voters don't want to acknowledge that the SB may have been doing their jobs. NO voters don't want to spend the money for the kids, they just want to believe the worst about the SB and throw into their faces mistakes that have been made in the past (by other school board members, who aren't even on the board now).

That "for the kids" argument is such a tired argument that keeps getting brought up. "If you don't give the SB permission to build another building, then you don't love your kids." "Aren't you for education? It's for the kids." "Don't you love your kids?"

Oh, pu-la-eese. That's so old. 204 has used that old argument for every referendum they've wanted passed. You are the one passing all the blame to the SB members that left. Don't try to say that I'm doing that. There are plenty of SB members left that could carry the entire blame for mismanagement. Why would you even think that I want to pass blame to people that aren't even there? The people that ARE there in the SB now can have all the blame. I don't need to pass any off to people that aren't there.

Implementing split shifts will still mean that we have mega high schools, the kids will just be in the building at different times. The schools are overcrowded now, there is more growth to come. Those are the facts. We have to live with those facts and deal with those facts.

I don't think split shifts mean we will have mega high schools at all. How do you figure that? And where are these facts you talk about? The facts that you are referring to aren't facts they are estimates thrown out by the SB and NIU. The community forum begged to talk to NIU, but the SB put it off until they relented and decided to hold a meeting during the day when only six people from the community forum could attend. What about comparing the predicted numbers to actual? Does that count?

How do we get 1000 kids at Builta. How did the SB arrive at that number? The SB says "it's just an estimate based on growth in the area" (as posted by Topher and greatly summarized by me) and we're willing to say, "uh, okay. We believe you."

You're asking me to vote YES for a $125,000,000 HS building bond because the SB just wants it and you're going to guilt me into it by telling me that I'm not for education or saying "it's for the kids." I don't think so.

If you truly believe that if the ref. fails that the SB is going to bring it out year after year until they get it passed, are you not admitting that at some point we will need it?

No, not at all. The statement above makes no sense and doesn't even follow. Bringing out this referendum every year until it's passed doesn't admit that we need it. The only thing that having the SB bring this referendum out year after year admits is that they won't look at any other options.

At what point will the public get it and will there be affordable land available to build on? At some point in the future, I believe sooner than later, the overcrowding will lead to mega schools requiring split shifts. Is that what we want for our children?

I could say at what point will the SB get it? So now we have to build a third HS before there isn't any land to build on? Is that more FUD? Mega schools and split shifts is just more FUD. "Is that what we want for our children?" Just more, "If you don't vote yes, you don't love your kids."

there should really be nothing greater than the education quality of this district

You forgot to add, "and the continual increase in the value of our homes and real estate taxes."

Maybe instead of looking for how split shifts hurts property values, we should look for how ever increasing property taxes hurts property values.

[stinks]

Plainfield, Oswego, Batavia, Geneva, St. Charles have high tax rates. Have their property values been harmed? I don't know, but I would venture to guess that thy have not. But truly I don't know.

[kae]

admin said:

Everyone, stop the personal attacks. I will ban people no matter what side you are on if this continues.

What personal attacks? So I can't say that I disagree with anyone or I'll get banned? What's that about?

[admin]

So I can't say that I disagree with anyone or I'll get banned?

Kae, I didn't say anything like that.

I'll get banned? What's that about?

It is my board and I get to make the rules.
I don't want it to turn into what the VoteNo board became so I am going to be strict about posts attacking other posters. Nothing gets accomplished with that type of board.