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Post by WeBe204 on Apr 26, 2008 22:37:21 GMT -6
Yeah -the SB's track record for predicting legal outcomes isn't exactly stellar  I am fairly flippant as well, I think it helps to keep humor when working through these items. However, the above comment is why I think it is reckless to just play a game of build it and it will be fine. I was impressed with your math. Your math is actually very similar to the math the admin/sb is using. I have also seen the statutes you put forth. They are same onese the admin/sd have put forth. I guess the idea is once again the district's experts are better than the oposition's experts. I certainly hope that is the case. I will be more than happy to eat crow if I am wrong. |
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Post by momof156graders on Apr 26, 2008 23:36:56 GMT -6
Player said: So the question in my mind is, keeping Brach-Brodie out of the picture for now, is Eola unacceptable from a risk perspective?
YES! THE BOARD HAS TAKEN IT UPON THEMSELVES TO MAKE THIS JUDEMENT CALL. WE VOTED FOR BB, NOT THIS SITE. THIS SITE HAS QUESTIONS OF SAFETY. THAT ALONE SHOULD MAKE IT UNACCEPTABLE. NOT VOTED FOR - AGAIN UNACCEPTABLE. EMF'S THAT CAUSE CONCERN, AND LEAVE UNANSWED QUESTIONS. RR THAT CONCERN OTHERS, PIPELINES THAT FREAK OUT OTHERS, WETLANDS, HIGHWAY PROXIMITY....SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE IT IS UNSAFE, SO IT IS NOT RIGHT FOR THE BOARD TO MAKE THAT JUDGEMENT CALL. PUT IT TO A VOTE!
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Post by momof156graders on Apr 27, 2008 0:10:46 GMT -6
Another way to look at is...Say you grab a turkey sub on the way to work, and accidentally leave it in your car. Lunchtime comes, and your hungry. The sandwich has sat in the car unrefrigerated for several hours. Is it safe? Do you eat it? Would you feed it to your child or grandparent? Judgment call. Some would eat it, some would go hungry, some would buy an alternate sandwich. Would i make that call for others? I might assume the risk for myself, but certainly would not serve it at a party. I would not make the decision for others knowing that there would be a POSSIBILITY of harm. Our school board has taken it upon themselves to make the decisions for us. I resent that.  |
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Post by player on Apr 27, 2008 6:40:41 GMT -6
Yeah -the SB's track record for predicting legal outcomes isn't exactly stellar I am fairly flippant as well, I think it helps to keep humor when working through these items. However, the above comment is why I think it is reckless to just play a game of build it and it will be fine. I was impressed with your math. Your math is actually very similar to the math the admin/sb is using. I have also seen the statutes you put forth. They are same onese the admin/sd have put forth. I guess the idea is once again the district's experts are better than the oposition's experts. I certainly hope that is the case. I will be more than happy to eat crow if I am wrong. Just so you have some context, I have not yet seen the math from the SB. I'll take your word for it that this is what they are arguing. The only thing I had heard (from my significant other ), that prompted me to look at this, was that AT had said in some SB meeting that BB damages were in the $5-$10M range. So I set about getting some data and looking for myself. My little exercise here was a first principles calculation from the Brodie suit, the history as presented in the Brodie suit and the statute - which I had to hunt down. The Brodie suit is explicitly asking for $2.5M as far as I can tell, so Brodie lawyers are representing this as their "expert" opinion on damages to the 55 acres. The other two components (attorney's fees and the PREIT damages) are already specified by statute or previous litigation from the condemnation suit. I believe the SD will contest the 55-acre award due to lack of precedent, and I expect the district will contest the PREIT award too, now that the PRIET deal was lost. I don't think they will prevail though, which is why my inclination is to include that in the damages. The trial should be precedent setting. All that being said, only the trial will tell what reality is, but, out of curiosity, is any other plaintiff asking for more that this in any lawsuit? I don't think the NSFOC is asking for monetary damages, are they? Are there any other claimants who can claim monetary damage? momof156graders: I see your point of view, and that of many like you on these boards. Maybe I'm wrong, but I also see the only way for a re-vote or referendum now to be a victory for the NSFOC lawsuit, as it is the only one out there questioning the legal authority of buying AME after having repeatedly positoned BB as the final site. Voting the SB out of power for breaking these promises, of course, will be too late in making any changes in or current trajectory. The Brodie lawsuit doesn't seem to care about where the school is built as long as they get their damages. Nothing I have seen so far indicates that the SB does not have the authority to buy AME, and I also haven't seen a mechanism to hold them accountable. Our country has 3 branches that hold each other accountable - the executive, legislative and judicial systems. The District has only two - executive (SB) and Judicial (Courts). There is no "District Council" where we can "veto' the SBs decision like the Congress can veto "W"s proposals. So the courts are the only option. I agree, as many have pointed out too, that just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean its not stupid, irresponsible and plain wrong. The question is, whats the available mechanism to address this? I for one believe that we should have a District Council that limits the powers of the SB, as a method for checks and balances. Won't do us too much good now, as that would need a legislative change, but going forward, there has to be a way to stop a renegade SB from a suicidal course. Left to me, I would have stopped them from even exercising Eminent Domain, and nipped this crisis in the bud. Guess hind-sight is 20-20.... There are a couple of other avenues, I suppose. The school board could be forced to resign by public humiliation or pressure, and the new board could reverse the old decision. But they could dig in and refuse to budge unless something illegal can be demonstrated in their actions. Their superiors could fire them, and thereby reconstitute the board. Don't even know what that would take to accomplish. Anyone file a complaint with MM's boss? The Illinois State laws could be changed, stripping all School Boards from having these kind of blanket powers. That is something which will have to pursued with legislators. Not clear if there is enough time to put a plan like this in action. Cheers. |
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Post by jftb on Apr 27, 2008 7:18:44 GMT -6
I have a question. While the Brodies have filed suit, is one from the Brachs also on the way?
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Post by player on Apr 27, 2008 7:25:15 GMT -6
I have a question. While the Brodies have filed suit, is one from the Brachs also on the way? Good question. The Brodie lawsuit seems to be representing 50% of its interest in Brach-Brodie, and is actually only claiming half of the $2.5M damages, stating that the other half goes to Brach. Seemed to me that somehow the two parties have been communicating on this, and are agreeing on this figure for damages. Can't say for sure. Anyone else know authoritatively? |
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Post by WeBe204 on Apr 27, 2008 8:29:33 GMT -6
All that being said, only the trial will tell what reality is, but, out of curiosity, is any other plaintiff asking for more that this in any lawsuit? I don't think the NSFOC is asking for monetary damages, are they? Are there any other claimants who can claim monetary damage? Completely, agreed! My problem is I do not appreciate my tax dollars being used in a game of chance. The risk profile for me is a bit too high. In the event that NFOC prevails with lets say getting a new referendum than any dollar spent on AME right now is a dollar wasted. So, while that is not technically monetary damages it is real tax dollars. Why do I think it will be money wasted? Because I do not believe the SB/admin will be able to convince people to vote Yes without putting all the options back on the table. Left to me, I would have stopped them from even exercising Eminent Domain, and nipped this crisis in the bud. Guess hind-sight is 20-20.... Completely agreed. That is point where I got on this crazy train. This entire effort was started with a bad seed when a consulting firm was hired to manipulated public opinion. As fence pointed out yesterday, we are now living in the future. We now have the ability to see the manipulation in High Def 20/20 that were used by the consulting firm in the name of ISPD 204. This would be another reason why I disagree with the stance that what is done is done. But again this is a talking point that is very popular with the district. There are a couple of other avenues, I suppose. The school board could be forced to resign by public humiliation or pressure, and the new board could reverse the old decision. But they could dig in and refuse to budge unless something illegal can be demonstrated in their actions. Their superiors could fire them, and thereby reconstitute the board. Don't even know what that would take to accomplish. Anyone file a complaint with MM's boss? Cheers. I am not looking to force anyone to resign via humiliation. I would like to have a board who talks with the public rather than scolds it. I think a lot of people try very hard to portray the anti-SB position as anti-education, anti-establishment, anti-"what is good with the world". These are emotional arguments that are being used as talking points. Given how deep your information well seems to be I am surprised that you do not know the process for board member removal starts with a board member raising the issue. Interesting, huh?  But yes complaints have been filed with the ISBE. There are interested parties investigating. That is what I meant in my original post about outside organizations reviewing the process. |
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Post by player on Apr 27, 2008 9:07:21 GMT -6
WeBe204: Agreed. If AME is reversed, that will constitute irrerversible use of tax dollars.
And no, I was not aware of the process to remove an SB member. Its does seem a little brain dead given that a board which is united but wrong will never impeach one of their own. Which is why I rant about external governance like district councils.
My information well unfortunately is not as deep as you suggest - I'm just a newbie with a research bent of mind. I have much to learn but will happily wade into detail as needed. I try not to judge anyones claim till I do my homework.what I uncover will likely not sit right with everyone, but I try to stick to facts, though my opinions will creep in sometimes, I'm sure.
Many thanks to many on this board for educating me and pointing me to sources if information. Cheers.
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Post by overtaxed on Apr 27, 2008 9:09:31 GMT -6
The Brodie lawsuit doesn't seem to care about where the school is built as long as they get their damages. Nothing I have seen so far indicates that the SB does not have the authority to buy AME, and I also haven't seen a mechanism to hold them accountable. Our country has 3 branches that hold each other accountable - the executive, legislative and judicial systems. The District has only two - executive (SB) and Judicial (Courts). There is no "District Council" where we can "veto' the SBs decision like the Congress can veto "W"s proposals. So the courts are the only option.I agree, as many have pointed out too, that just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean its not stupid, irresponsible and plain wrong. The question is, whats the available mechanism to address this? I for one believe that we should have a District Council that limits the powers of the SB, as a method for checks and balances. Won't do us too much good now, as that would need a legislative change, but going forward, there has to be a way to stop a renegade SB from a suicidal course. Left to me, I would have stopped them from even exercising Eminent Domain, and nipped this crisis in the bud. Guess hind-sight is 20-20....There are a couple of other avenues, I suppose. The school board could be forced to resign by public humiliation or pressure, and the new board could reverse the old decision. But they could dig in and refuse to budge unless something illegal can be demonstrated in their actions. Their superiors could fire them, and thereby reconstitute the board. Don't even know what that would take to accomplish. Anyone file a complaint with MM's boss? The Illinois State laws could be changed, stripping all School Boards from having these kind of blanket powers. That is something which will have to pursued with legislators. Not clear if there is enough time to put a plan like this in action. Cheers. Player I have enjoyed reading your posts. I agree about the checks and balances. I've stated this before. It is ashame that this is something that is needed on this level, but at the same time it is also ashame this wasn't also there already to protect our children, and our taxes. |
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Post by Arch on Apr 27, 2008 9:11:11 GMT -6
The Brodie lawsuit doesn't seem to care about where the school is built as long as they get their damages. Nothing I have seen so far indicates that the SB does not have the authority to buy AME, and I also haven't seen a mechanism to hold them accountable. Our country has 3 branches that hold each other accountable - the executive, legislative and judicial systems. The District has only two - executive (SB) and Judicial (Courts). There is no "District Council" where we can "veto' the SBs decision like the Congress can veto "W"s proposals. So the courts are the only option.I agree, as many have pointed out too, that just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean its not stupid, irresponsible and plain wrong. The question is, whats the available mechanism to address this? I for one believe that we should have a District Council that limits the powers of the SB, as a method for checks and balances. Won't do us too much good now, as that would need a legislative change, but going forward, there has to be a way to stop a renegade SB from a suicidal course. Left to me, I would have stopped them from even exercising Eminent Domain, and nipped this crisis in the bud. Guess hind-sight is 20-20....There are a couple of other avenues, I suppose. The school board could be forced to resign by public humiliation or pressure, and the new board could reverse the old decision. But they could dig in and refuse to budge unless something illegal can be demonstrated in their actions. Their superiors could fire them, and thereby reconstitute the board. Don't even know what that would take to accomplish. Anyone file a complaint with MM's boss? The Illinois State laws could be changed, stripping all School Boards from having these kind of blanket powers. That is something which will have to pursued with legislators. Not clear if there is enough time to put a plan like this in action. Cheers. Player I have enjoyed reading your posts. I agree about the checks and balances. I've stated this before. It is ashame that this is something that is needed on this level, but at the same time it is also ashame this wasn't also there already to protect our children, and our taxes. Life is a learning process. If we learn from mistakes in the past we have the hope of making even newer and grander ones in the future without boring repetition. |
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Post by overtaxed on Apr 27, 2008 9:16:44 GMT -6
Arch hope your right, but will the SB learn anything?
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Post by entitled on Apr 27, 2008 10:08:08 GMT -6
One has to acknowledge making mistakes before corrective action can be assessed. Our SB does not admit to errors, only miscalculations. They believe their thinking is never flawed and they are much more intelligent than their constituency. They constantly insult the intellect of parents and rely on ignorance and apathy of the non-parental residents.
I suggested to the new NV principal that he harness parent power and try not to refer to them as "entitled", at least not to their faces. He laughed. We'll see.
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Post by player on Apr 27, 2008 10:36:28 GMT -6
Player I have enjoyed reading your posts. I agree about the checks and balances. I've stated this before. It is ashame that this is something that is needed on this level, but at the same time it is also ashame this wasn't also there already to protect our children, and our taxes. overtaxed: Spot on! If there is anything I have learned from life, its the fact that human beings are flawed. Its process that saves us from human frailties. I have no illusions that the NEXT SB, elected on the promises that they might make, will be immune to these frailties either. Because that is human nature. So while I am pretty upset about where we are right now from a district unity perspective, I'm even more upset that there is no process to remedy this without litigation. I do not expect the SB to suddenly see the light, they will more likely feel the heat. But the flaw that got us here is systemic - not specific to this SB alone. There got to be a way to stop a runaway freight train. If the systemic flaw is corrected, we'll not be in such a pickle again. So Arch, thats my lesson learned. Lets put in checks and balanes. 'Nuff pontificating for now.... ;D Cheers. |
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Post by Arch on Apr 27, 2008 10:57:43 GMT -6
Player I have enjoyed reading your posts. I agree about the checks and balances. I've stated this before. It is ashame that this is something that is needed on this level, but at the same time it is also ashame this wasn't also there already to protect our children, and our taxes. overtaxed: Spot on! If there is anything I have learned from life, its the fact that human beings are flawed. Its process that saves us from human frailties. I have no illusions that the NEXT SB, elected on the promises that they might make, will be immune to these frailties either. Because that is human nature. So while I am pretty upset about where we are right now from a district unity perspective, I'm even more upset that there is no process to remedy this without litigation. I do not expect the SB to suddenly see the light, they will more likely feel the heat. But the flaw that got us here is systemic - not specific to this SB alone. There got to be a way to stop a runaway freight train. If the systemic flaw is corrected, we'll not be in such a pickle again. So Arch, thats my lesson learned. Lets put in checks and balanes. 'Nuff pontificating for now.... ;D Cheers. Right now, the check and balance is a legal lawsuit. I agree, it would be nice to have other options, but some people saw none and thus pursued a rightful and legal method to attempt to check/balance things. Forgot where I read this, but someone mentioned something about Abraham Lincoln on trying to unite the country.. but also mentioned a small group of dissenters who ruined that plan.. then tried to make the connection to these events. I find it funny that they believe assassination was legal back then. Lawsuits are legal, murder is not. Oh well.. Carry on. |
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Post by d204mom on Apr 27, 2008 11:09:01 GMT -6
Arch hope your right, but will the SB learn anything? The decision makers continue to believe their mistakes are merely a series of unfortunate events that they have no control over, or at least that is what they claim in public. So I for one believe they will continue to make the same mistakes over and over until they own up to the fact that THEY are the ones making the mistakes. |
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