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Post by player on May 3, 2008 20:58:25 GMT -6
Player, What if the SD does none of the things for the pipelines that you think will make it safer? Would you still send your kids there? Also, what do you think of the EMF's at this site? friend: My honest answer, yes - but that would force me to take a far more activist role in our district, and I would probably fight that they take this seriously, in public. If the risk can be minimized, we should demand it. That may mean more tax hikes though  Cheers. |
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Post by Arch on May 3, 2008 20:59:12 GMT -6
Player, What if the SD does none of the things for the pipelines that you think will make it safer? Would you still send your kids there? Also, what do you think of the EMF's at this site? friend: My honest answer, yes - but that would force me to take a far more activist role in our district, and I would probably fight that they take this seriously, in public. If the risk can be minimized, we should demand it. That may mean more tax hikes though Cheers. Might as well just buy the land without the problem in the first place  |
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Post by friend on May 3, 2008 21:05:07 GMT -6
Player,
Thanks for the EMF information and your thoughts on the pipelines.
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Post by rural on May 3, 2008 21:11:29 GMT -6
One more point: I want to make it clear that direct current does NOT produce EMF. A concern was raised in the NSFOC lawsuit that the cathodic protection for pipelines (a DC current) may cause EMF. Categorically not! Basic physics. Player, do you have a theory for why the readings above the pipelines were higher than in other areas on the site? ETA: I, and I'm sure some others, were lead to believe it was the result of the charge from the pipelines. Was the meter just reading the D/C current? See, Player knows about AC/DC, too. |
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Post by player on May 3, 2008 21:37:14 GMT -6
I am not an environmental specialist. Just a parent who is very concerned about all the environmental issues raised because I have children who will go there. Common sense would tell you between the pipelines, incresed RR traffic, the peaker structure and that huge eletrical sub-station nearby that there is a ton of energy in that particular area. Right? friend: The pipelines have a ton of latent energy. The failure modes for substations and powerlines are very different, and as they are not right on the Eola site, I am not too concerned about catastrophic failure of the electrical systems. Which is why I am in agreement with Arch that low-risk as the pipelines are, getting it even lower is better. And to echo Arch's mantra: No pipeline is better than any pipeline. Which brings me to a broader discussion. Let me take this opportunity to help put in perspective why I am investigating these environmental issues. I firmly believe that this soap opera our district is engaged in is going to go one of two ways. Either MVHS will get built at Eola or this will go to a referendum, which will fail miserably, so no MVHS at all. I came to this conclusion after the SB purchased the AME site and I had a chance to study the lawsuits against this. I have posted extensively on why I think so elsewhere. At this stage, this decision is entirely out of my hands - Popejoy owns it, and he will do as he will. I have my theories on how this will go, and I have also posted those. If Eola/MVHS gets canned in a third referendum, all this is moot, and all I have done is to waste my time researching this stuff. No big deal. However, if MVHS gets built in Eola, it is in my selfish interest to ensure it is as safe as it can be for my kids. I do not believe that 0 risk is achievable in life so my task is to minimize it as much as I can without unduly curtailing the development of my children. For example, I take a risk every time I put my kids in my car, because no matter how safely I drive, I cannot stop a drunk driver from ploughing into me. So I mitigate risk by insisting on seat belts, watching other drivers for erratic behaviour, following traffic regulations, etc. I do not stop driving because of this risk, because I do not want my kids to be monks. I want them to experience and enjoy life. So this is my personal journey in understanding risk for the Eola site. This understanding of risk is the first step in managing risk. As the adage goes "You cannot manage what you cannot measure". I share this in this forum because I believe there are other parents who, if faced with sending their kids to MVHS/Eola, should also understand risk so they can approach it sensibly. I have been blessed with certain analytic capabilities, and I feel duty bound to use it for service to others (No - I'm not claiming to be an altruist - I'm just an ordinary Joe/Jane who feels the responsibility to contribute to the community). The research I do is detailed, but let me assure you, it is not something I have been sitting on for months. The pipeline analysis was done over a period of about 1 week (the past week), roughly 20 hrs of digging and 4 hrs of writing it up. I believe anyone who is tenacious in seeking the truth, and with basic training in the sciences can do just as well. So, all this effort on my part is for the event that we have to build at Eola, i.e. all the legal action fails. I want parents to be informed on what that means. Cheers. |
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Post by player on May 3, 2008 21:39:13 GMT -6
One more point: I want to make it clear that direct current does NOT produce EMF. A concern was raised in the NSFOC lawsuit that the cathodic protection for pipelines (a DC current) may cause EMF. Categorically not! Basic physics. Player, do you have a theory for why the readings above the pipelines were higher than in other areas on the site? ETA: I, and I'm sure some others, were lead to believe it was the result of the charge from the pipelines. Was the meter just reading the D/C current? See, Player knows about AC/DC, too. rural: I wasn't aware of that - can you point me to the data? I'll take a look. Cheers. |
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Post by player on May 3, 2008 21:41:09 GMT -6
One more point: I want to make it clear that direct current does NOT produce EMF. A concern was raised in the NSFOC lawsuit that the cathodic protection for pipelines (a DC current) may cause EMF. Categorically not! Basic physics. Player, do you have a theory for why the readings above the pipelines were higher than in other areas on the site? ETA: I, and I'm sure some others, were lead to believe it was the result of the charge from the pipelines. Was the meter just reading the D/C current? See, Player knows about AC/DC, too. rural: DC currents would produce a static magnetic field, not an alternating field. You need a changing current to produce EMF. So that would be strange. Point me to the data. Cheers. |
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Post by rural on May 3, 2008 21:47:10 GMT -6
Player, do you have a theory for why the readings above the pipelines were higher than in other areas on the site? ETA: I, and I'm sure some others, were lead to believe it was the result of the charge from the pipelines. Was the meter just reading the D/C current? See, Player knows about AC/DC, too. rural: DC currents would produce a static magnetic field, not an alternating field. You need a changing current to produce EMF. So that would be strange. Point me to the data. Cheers. Page 12 |
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Post by macy on May 3, 2008 22:09:31 GMT -6
Player,
EMF exposure tied to auto immune disease. Please do the research behind that. I'd love multiple posts and graphs to read as I really believe there is a connection. Or, do you believe the "old school" philosophy that a vaccine triggers some auto immune diseases.
No disrespect or sarcasm meant at all. You are someone that can dig up scientific data quickly. I would appreciate anything you could offer on this hypothesis. Again, I've heard more than one Dr. state there is a connection.
As I stated in my earlier post, many auto-immune specialists are currently of the opinion EMF exposure triggers auto immune disease.
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Post by player on May 3, 2008 22:25:27 GMT -6
Player, EMF exposure tied to auto immune disease. Please do the research behind that. I'd love multiple posts and graphs to read as I really believe there is a connection. Or, do you believe the "old school" philosophy that a vaccine triggers some auto immune diseases. No disrespect or sarcasm meant at all. You are someone that can dig up scientific data quickly. I would appreciate anything you could offer on this hypothesis. Again, I've heard more than one Dr. state there is a connection. As I stated in my earlier post, many auto-immune specialists are currently of the opinion EMF exposure triggers auto immune disease. macy: For you, sure. I'll do some digging and let you know what I find out. I should mention that I am very dubious of any hypothesis that says that because no other explanation can be found, X must be the cause. But, let me review the literature. Your point is a good one - chronic conditions like lupus are touch as hell to explain as a mechanism is difficulty to nail down. Personally, I am leery of vaccines, but haven't seen anything that convinces me that it is the cause. It is a good suspect though. Cheers. |
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Post by player on May 3, 2008 22:30:50 GMT -6
rural: DC currents would produce a static magnetic field, not an alternating field. You need a changing current to produce EMF. So that would be strange. Point me to the data. Cheers. Page 12 rural: My guess is that there is some other AC driven monitoring or control system alongside the pipeline that the Dexsil Gaussmeter is measuring. I looked at the patent filings for the Dexsil, it measures AC fields in 3 directions with induction loops, and is insensitive to DC. It is also sensitive to 50 Hz currents. The pipeline is only 4 ft below the ground, so even a relatively mild current can induce a measurable magnetic field. I'll dig some more on what kind of monitoring/control systems these pipelines have. Cheers. |
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Post by rural on May 3, 2008 22:33:02 GMT -6
rural: My guess is that there is some other AC driven monitoring or control system alongside the pipeline that the Dexsil Gaussmeter is measuring. I looked at the patent filings for the Dexsil, it measures AC fields in 3 directions with induction loops, and is insensitive to DC. It is also sensitive to 50 Hz currents. The pipeline is only 4 ft below the ground, so even a relatively mild current can induce a measurable magnetic field. I'll dig some more on what kind of monitoring/control systems these pipelines have. Cheers. Appreciate the effort, Player.  |
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Post by proschool on May 3, 2008 23:01:49 GMT -6
There are 1.9 million miles of pipeline in the US. The NTSB has a classification for the kind of events that are associated with pipeline malfunction. The PHMSA classifies events into "Serious", which involves fatality or in-patient hospitalization, and "Significant" which includes Serious and other consequences like loss of property etc. Statistics on these can be found at: primis.phmsa.dot.gov/comm/reports/safety/SerPSI.htmlWe are primarily concerned here with Gas Transmission Onshore events, and ones that involve loss of life or hospitalization from a child safety perspective. From 1988-2007 there were a total of 144 Gas Transmission Onshore "Serious" incidents in the U.S. The maximum and minimum in a year are 12 and 2 respectively. The average per year is about 6. So I set about estimating the probability of such an incident happening when a child was at the Eola site. Eola has a border with is roughly 1/3 of a mile with the pipeline. The probablity/year that this section will have an Serious incident can be estimated by: P= 1/3*6/1.9million or roughly 1 in a million. If the child is at school 80 hrs a week, this becomes 1 in 2 million. I'd prefer to use Significant as opposed to Serious, as Serious incidents do not take population density around the pipeline into account. The number of Significant incidents for Transmission are 1041 in 20 years, or about 52/year so the probability of something significant happening is more like 1 in 100,000, and of something while a child is in the school is 1 in 200,000 (roughly). [End of Post 3/5] Not so, unless you assume that all natural gas pipelines are within 200 feet of a school and all of the other schools are occupied 24 hours per day. There were plenty of incidents not counted in this graph because they occured in areas where noone was around. And what do you mean if "a child is in school?" If there is an incident there may be 3000 children in school plus teachers and support staff. You seem to correlate one incident to mean one injury but an incident that involves multiple injuries is still just considered one incident. If one pipeline where to explode and cause death or serious injury to everyone in the school it would only be counted on your graph as one incident divided by all the miles of pipeline in the United States. So is one incident significant or isn't it? Also you seem to forget that there are three pipelines not one. Additionally there there is a crude oil pipeline nearby. Furthermore I would like to see a report on the incidence of accidents that occur in pipelines that are as old, as large and as pressurized as the ones that are at AME. |
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Post by player on May 3, 2008 23:04:07 GMT -6
rural: My guess is that there is some other AC driven monitoring or control system alongside the pipeline that the Dexsil Gaussmeter is measuring. I looked at the patent filings for the Dexsil, it measures AC fields in 3 directions with induction loops, and is insensitive to DC. It is also sensitive to 50 Hz currents. The pipeline is only 4 ft below the ground, so even a relatively mild current can induce a measurable magnetic field. I'll dig some more on what kind of monitoring/control systems these pipelines have. Cheers. Appreciate the effort, Player. rural: You know what - I'm looking at the field strength patterns and if you notice the field strength drops from 7.2 mG near the north end, and down to 2 mG in the enter and back again to 6.24 mG at the south end! That makes me believe that the magnetic field is not due to something alongside the pipe, but rather due to some source south of the site. Turns out pipeline monitoring systems are often installed at block valve stations (see below) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipeline_transportI'm willing to bet there is a valve station or something similar with instrumentation and telemetry for SCADA at the south end of the site. The measurements are consistent with something at the southern most tip of the pipeline, or even further south. Cheers. |
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Post by rural on May 3, 2008 23:11:46 GMT -6
There are pipes that stick out of the ground at North Aurora Road that label the pipes. Perhaps there is something there. As far as I can recall, there is no housing, but I would have to drive by again to be sure.
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