Where to build MV

[gatordog]

macy said:

momto4 said:

In absence of ANY other issues, come up with a boundary scenario that works well for the majority of the district with either of these location. I don't know of one. This is why I'm referring to them as bad locations.

Until I know the cost difference I will never consider an alternate location bad just based on having to redraw boundaries.

Are you saying that despite the cost difference we can't switch and potentially save millions because there is no way to redraw boundaries?

If you are, I completely disagree. Boundaries were brutal and will be again if we have to redo. But, I personally can't justify paying millions more. I'm sure many may disagree with me and that's okay.

It's just my opinion that we need to look into the other options at this point.

macy, the non-economic cost of doing boundaries to which several of us referring isnt about another round of marathon meetings and some SB members breaking an implicit promise of sorts with voters. that doesnt bother me in the least if it has to be done.

but you must factor in a "community cost". A community cost born by several neighborhoods (maybe not yours or mine).

There is a non-economic standard that ideally each subdivision is well served by school sites if 2 of 3 schools for their attendance area are relatively local. (This is what sold me on the idealness of BB....ALL prominent areas that spoke out and got their "2nd choice" of HS's...Brookdale, Fry, Gombert-West, and Macom speaking up for future Ashwood residents...are clearly well served with ES and MS locations. (ALL of course is not literally true since Butterfield subdivion isnt satisified....somber head nod to wvhsparent)

Macom will be a big step backward in meeting this criteria. By my figuring, falling out of the 2 of 3 "fairness" criteria will be Graham, Kendall, Owen, Cowlishaw, Watts, and Gombert East. Is it worth a few million savings to do that to all those neighborhoods?

I will throw two other areas out there: with Macom site I think its quite likely that Georgetown would be sent to the 248th site, not WV. Maybe a lesser likelyhood, but numbers were guiding me there....I think part of Welch would go to 248th also . These communities would technically meet the 2 of 3 criteria because of ES and MS placement, but would have a very legitamate claim that their HS assignment was "ridiculous".

Graham, Kendall, Owen, Cowlishaw, Watts, Gombert East, Georgetown, and possibly either Wheatland or Welch getting worse HS geography is not worth $5 million spread over district or even $10 million or maybe more in IMHO.

[eta: their is a gain of course in location advantage: Peterson and Fry jump up to 3 of 3 score, which when looking district-wide. I would deem unfair. ]

We cant know exact dollar savings of Macom land. We CAN head scratch in pretty precise manner what it would make our communities look like (another word for boundaries). I urge you, macy, see if you can come up with one....I wish i could but i cant.

As a district taxpayer....to me it is not worth. This is what I mean when I say doing HS boundaries at Macom site do not "make this district a better place".

[macy]

Gatordog,

Interesting thoughts. The thought process on your criteria of "neighborhood schools" is a new one to me. I'm much more educated in the floating criteria that the SB applied to the boundary process last go round.

Let me think on this one, pull out the map and try to assign your criteria as well as some other important criteria when assigning boundaries. I don't think it's unthinkable to come up with a solution for boundaries for Macom.

Can you apply your criteria to the St. John's property? Would that be a viable alternative?

[lacy]

movingforward said:

lacy said:

I had to go back to the 6-day enrollment figures before I answered.

No matter which 4 grades I add up, I can't come up with much more than about 1000 additional kids beyond what we are housing now. And we aren't hearing about crowded classrooms at NVHS or Scullen (the most frequently mentioned overcrowded schools) - hallways yes, but not classrooms.

What's also concerning is the drop off in enrollment at K and 1st grade. If that continues, the "bubble" is already in the system and will barely be addressed by the time we build anything anywhere.

If the district was really concerned about the kids currently in the system, they would have moved much quicker. When the first referendum failed, they could have built a middle school. Instead, they came back to the public with threats of split shifts, 5000 student highschools, etc.

With the enrollment looking to be vastly different than the doom and gloom scenarios presented during the referendum, I think we need to look at some alternatives before we build a 3000 seat high school for 1000 kids.

I do however think we need additional space at some level. What I would like to see is a very thoughtful and careful analysis of different options that is presented to the public. This would include looking at other sites as well as other alternatives to a 3000 seat high school.

Just because we have land cash donations or other funds available, it doesn't mean we should spend full steam ahead. If the landscape has changed (enrollment and much higher land costs), we should take a second look.

Otherwise, we could have another Petersen on our hands (and a very expensive one at that).

I don't know how to single out a single sentence for a quote box, but I find your comment that classrooms at Scullen are not overcrowded does not to fit the reality I see for 6th and 7th graders. (I cannot speak about 8th grade because I do not have an 8th grader)

Not only the hallways are crowded; additional classrooms are added all over the school, including the library during 10th period and in family room areas, to accommodate the kids. Yes, they are making the best of it due to the positive attitude of the teachers and staff, but it is not an optimal situation for learning, IMO.

It seems that we all have our perception of 'overcrowded' , and I respect that. For me, it is definitely not acceptable or desirable what my kids are experiencing at Scullen.

My kids aren't having a problem whatsoever at Scullen. Their classrooms are absolutely not crowded.

[movingforward]

lacy said:

movingforward said:

I don't know how to single out a single sentence for a quote box, but I find your comment that classrooms at Scullen are not overcrowded does not to fit the reality I see for 6th and 7th graders. (I cannot speak about 8th grade because I do not have an 8th grader)

Not only the hallways are crowded; additional classrooms are added all over the school, including the library during 10th period and in family room areas, to accommodate the kids. Yes, they are making the best of it due to the positive attitude of the teachers and staff, but it is not an optimal situation for learning, IMO.

It seems that we all have our perception of 'overcrowded' , and I respect that. For me, it is definitely not acceptable or desirable what my kids are experiencing at Scullen.

My kids aren't having a problem whatsoever at Scullen. Their classrooms are absolutely not crowded.

Then you are very lucky.

[gatordog]

macy said:

Gatordog,

Interesting thoughts. The thought process on your criteria of "neighborhood schools" is a new one to me. I'm much more educated in the floating criteria that the SB applied to the boundary process last go round.

Let me think on this one, pull out the map and try to assign your criteria as well as some other important criteria when assigning boundaries. I don't think it's unthinkable to come up with a solution for boundaries for Macom.

Can you apply your criteria to the St. John's property? Would that be a viable alternative?

I will give you my stab....for compare/contrast purposes

ES to MV at Macomb, with projected HS students (scaled from boudnary graph 5A ES enrollement)

1. "easy ones"
WE
Fry
Gom
Peters (ashwood part)...not many for now
=1360

2. "harder choices"
Graham
Kendall
=1080

3. "hardest choices"
Gtown
=400 minus some walkers to WV

Gets a little vague here BUT...I think some Welch Wheatland (better probably) might have to go to MV to "make up" for Gtwon walkers (a decent number?)....AND if Owen Watts and Cowl go to NV then some of Wheatland Welch may have to move to "make room".
edits noted with strikethroughs...is afte rall the "vague part". Point is I think its possible Wheat or Welch could be affected.


There... a few fleshed out details. it is a headache.

I will have to think in vague way about St John (maybe some of their proponents can offer suggestions)

[justme]

movingforward said:

lacy said:

My kids aren't having a problem whatsoever at Scullen. Their classrooms are absolutely not crowded.

Then you are very lucky.

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

[macy]

gatordog,

I have my map out and I'm working on it. I'm assigning other criteria as well. Trying to stay with the ones the SB ended up with for MV.

Geography (walkers)
Acheivement balancing
etc.

Again, I'll try to work your criteria in as well. However, I've always been in favor of keeping Middle schools together. Can you work on a scenario for Macom that would do that and fit some of the criteria.

[movingforward]

justme said:

movingforward said:

Then you are very lucky.

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

Like I said in my original post; it appears we all have our own perception of what 'overcrowded' is and what is acceptable or not.

The teams my kids are on have classrooms set up in their 'family room' areas; I find that unacceptable. They need more room. Are they miserable, NO. But they need more room.

I'm guessing that the majority of folks feel that same way and that is why the referendum was passed. We could really use that 7th middle school to make middle school kids' experience even better!

[harry]

gatordog said:

macy said:

Until I know the cost difference I will never consider an alternate location bad just based on having to redraw boundaries.

Are you saying that despite the cost difference we can't switch and potentially save millions because there is no way to redraw boundaries?

If you are, I completely disagree. Boundaries were brutal and will be again if we have to redo. But, I personally can't justify paying millions more. I'm sure many may disagree with me and that's okay.

It's just my opinion that we need to look into the other options at this point.

macy, the non-economic cost of doing boundaries to which several of us referring isnt about another round of marathon meetings and some SB members breaking an implicit promise of sorts with voters. that doesnt bother me in the least if it has to be done.

but you must factor in a "community cost". A community cost born by several neighborhoods (maybe not yours or mine).

There is a non-economic standard that ideally each subdivision is well served by school sites if 2 of 3 schools for their attendance area are relatively local. (This is what sold me on the idealness of BB....ALL prominent areas that spoke out and got their "2nd choice" of HS's...Brookdale, Fry, Gombert-West, and Macom speaking up for future Ashwood residents...are clearly well served with ES and MS locations. (ALL of course is not literally true since Butterfield subdivion isnt satisified....somber head nod to wvhsparent)

Macom will be a big step backward in meeting this criteria. By my figuring, falling out of the 2 of 3 "fairness" criteria will be Graham, Kendall, Owen, Cowlishaw, Watts, and Gombert East. Is it worth a few million savings to do that to all those neighborhoods?

I will throw two other areas out there: with Macom site I think its quite likely that Georgetown would be sent to the 248th site, not WV. Maybe a lesser likelyhood, but numbers were guiding me there....I think part of Welch would go to 248th also . These communities would technically meet the 2 of 3 criteria because of ES and MS placement, but would have a very legitamate claim that their HS assignment was "ridiculous".

Graham, Kendall, Owen, Cowlishaw, Watts, Gombert East, Georgetown, and possibly Welch getting worse HS geography is not worth $5 million spread over district or even $10 million or maybe more in IMHO.

[eta: their is a gain of course in location advantage: Peterson and Fry jump up to 3 of 3 score, which when looking district-wide. I would deem unfair. ]

We cant know exact dollar savings of Macom land. We CAN head scratch in pretty precise manner what it would make our communities look like (another word for boundaries). I urge you, macy, see if you can come up with one....I wish i could but i cant.

As a district taxpayer....to me it is not worth. This is what I mean when I say doing HS boundaries at Macom site do not "make this district a better place".

Question,,,a show of hands,,,,who had boundary changes when they were in MS or HS growing up???

Question ...a show of hands....who went to one school but your "I've known him since I can remember" BFF, who lived across the street from you went to another HS???

We need to get over ourselves here in this sleepy bedroom community and focus on bigger issues...

Re boundary was going to happen from the get go.,,,some subdivisions/big intersections will be divided MOVE ON

p.s. Don't let your children see you crying about it,,,they are impressionable and will take up your cause.

[harry]

justme said:

movingforward said:

Then you are very lucky.

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

Thanks for posting this for the whole board to see and, I mean the SB too, who watch this board.

Children are resilient and can handle a lot more than we give them credit for....

[gatordog]

macy said:

gatordog,

I have my map out and I'm working on it. I'm assigning other criteria as well. Trying to stay with the ones the SB ended up with for MV.

Geography (walkers)
Acheivement balancing
etc.

Again, I'll try to work your criteria in as well. However, I've always been in favor of keeping Middle schools together. Can you work on a scenario for Macom that would do that and fit some of the criteria.

Yes, for HS we should go with the geography with a flavor of achievement balance (the agreed upon 5A criteria). That criteria pretty much lead me to my above breakdown.

The MS problem is harder: more variables! I am not going to chew much on that for now. I will quickly throw out a contrary point (discussed months ago on this board)....I am in favor of near 50/50 split MS...exactly opposite of the keep them together approach. My other criteria is the 2 of 3 nearby school criteria. I look forward to such discussions in near future! (better nail down MV site first!)


Good luck with figuring....its always best when multiple heads approach problems from multiple ways (democracy in action!)

[lacy]

justme said:

movingforward said:

Then you are very lucky.

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

I would have to agree, Justme, that the Scullen staff and administration are due a great deal of credit for making the situation work - and it does work, at least from my perspective. (just don't try to go the wrong way in the halls!)

[movingforward]

lacy said:

justme said:

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

I would have to agree, Justme, that the Scullen staff and administration are due a great deal of credit for making the situation work - and it does work, at least from my perspective. (just don't try to go the wrong way in the halls!)

I too cannot say enough good things about the staff. To that , we all agree

[harry]

movingforward said:

justme said:

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

Like I said in my original post; it appears we all have our own perception of what 'overcrowded' is and what is acceptable or not.

The teams my kids are on have classrooms set up in their 'family room' areas; I find that unacceptable. They need more room. Are they miserable, NO. But they need more room.

I'm guessing that the majority of folks feel that same way and that is why the referendum was passed. We could really use that 7th middle school to make middle school kids' experience even better!

with all due respect, mf, YOU find it unacceptable....more room for what,,,?? THEY EVEN CLAIM THAT THEY ARE NOT MISERABLE!!



Are you listening to your children??

I am clearly not following your line of reasoning...and I repeat,,, are you miserable because you live in Dist 204 and pay substantial taxes and your kids should not 'have to put up w/this because you live in dist 204??

Or do you have conclusive evidence that your kids are not learning in their classrooms, wherever they may be???

The majority of the people voted yes because they were threatened with split shifts and trailers.

Not only would that have NEVER happened but neither has the enrollment projection numbers drummed up by the district materialized.

Secondarily, other folks believe that a 3rd hs will guarantee that their son plays lst string instead of 2nd....like it will make a difference in scholarships...

Whew,,,

All of us need to look in the mirror

[harry]

lacy said:

justme said:

I am very lucky too. Report from my kid...yes to very crowded hallways, but fine with class sizes, lunch room, etc. Bottom line from my Scullen student, overall great experience.

Thank you to the Scullen staff for their fabulous handling of the situation. My child feels that the Scullen experience has been the best it could be, overcrowded or not.

I would have to agree, Justme, that the Scullen staff and administration are due a great deal of credit for making the situation work - and it does work, at least from my perspective. (just don't try to go the wrong way in the halls!)

Neccesity is the mother of invention