Pipeline BTUs

[wvhsparent]

archwinsome said:

2 Birds with one stone. Someone already did some math like this.

winsome.cnchost.com/pipeline/Kiefner-Final-Report-06-45.pdf

Heat damage thresholds for a 24inch pipe as well as TNT equivalent chart for various pipe sizes. (Table 3 and also Appendix C)

This was for a compressor station but went into the effects and consequences and safety distances in case of pipeline failure. The PIR for the 24 inch line is 624 feet. The actual math formula is in the document.

Since a 36 inch line carries more gas than a 24 inch line, we can safely assume the PIR for a 36 inch line is greater than 624 feet. Add the fact that there are multiple lines and we have an even greater PIR. Factor in the explosive force of TNT and we can safely say there will be damage to the building and death on the athletic fields in the event of a failure because the building is going to be 200-300 feet from the pipes, according to the school board.

Spontaneous ignition of fiberboard will still happen at 344 feet on a 24 inch gas line. Imagine what that does to any child unfortunate enough to be outside or inside the building facing the lines.

This is what we are buying folks. This is what people want us to build next to.

Excellent read arch......Did you read the report in it's entirety?

[rural]

brad204 said:

rural said:

At this point, whether anyone likes it or not, the school is being built there. It's moving forward.

There are no cold feet on MWGEN's part.
They are moving forward.

The SB has no qualms after hearing the professionals' opinions about enviro.
As stated in the paper, they are moving forward.

Nsfoc is an impotent group at this point, unless they can come up with the bond funds for a TRO. The group can do nothing to stop the SB from moving forward.

So, unless SuperArch can somehow negotiate a deal with BB for the school district before the closing with AME/MWGEN, this will be our new school site.

We will have to work TOGETHER as a cohesive group to make sure that the SB and Administration do everything within their power to make sure this site is safe and stays that way.

Oh rural you do not know anymore than anyone else. Stop stoking the fires

The tarot cards don't lie!

ETA: (That's supposed to be a joke. )

[fence]

I think that's all most of us want... I just don't think the average resident or SB member should be considered an "expert" for these purposes. That's all.

steckdad said:

\I know I stand be roasted by this group, but let the environmental EXPERTS do their jobs...and stop the conspiracy theories and fear mongering.

[sushi]

rural said:

At this point, whether anyone likes it or not, the school is being built there. It's moving forward.

There are no cold feet on MWGEN's part.
They are moving forward.

The SB has no qualms after hearing the professionals' opinions about enviro.
As stated in the paper, they are moving forward.

Nsfoc is an impotent group at this point, unless they can come up with the bond funds for a TRO. The group can do nothing to stop the SB from moving forward.

So, unless SuperArch can somehow negotiate a deal with BB for the school district before the closing with AME/MWGEN, this will be our new school site.

We will have to work TOGETHER as a cohesive group to make sure that the SB and Administration do everything within their power to make sure this site is safe and stays that way.

Don't need tarot cards to see this.

[doctorwho]

rural said:

At this point, whether anyone likes it or not, the school is being built there. It's moving forward.

There are no cold feet on MWGEN's part.
They are moving forward.

The SB has no qualms after hearing the professionals' opinions about enviro.
As stated in the paper, they are moving forward.

Nsfoc is an impotent group at this point, unless they can come up with the bond funds for a TRO. The group can do nothing to stop the SB from moving forward.

So, unless SuperArch can somehow negotiate a deal with BB for the school district before the closing with AME/MWGEN, this will be our new school site.

We will have to work TOGETHER as a cohesive group to make sure that the SB and Administration do everything within their power to make sure this site is safe and stays that way.

Do you also have the 6 numbers for Friday's MegaMillions also in your bag of tricks ?

I am glad you have it all worked out - but sorry if I am not buying all of it just yet. This is sort of like Obama's stratgey to just ignore Hillary and try and, move on to the next step well before he's there. Not everyone in that party is buying that either.

Also I'm hearing that the SB may not be quite as united as the SD Admin on rushing without more info. I know that would blow up this prophecy - sorry.

You and the SB and SD can try and demand people get in line -- but this is not the anti nsfoc URL - this same strategy is going to backfire down the line if the SB continues it also- there will be needs for more financing in the future ( no matter how hard they try and postpone the next referendum - ) - good luck with that if this train of thought continues. That is when everyone needs to be on board ( as we have seen in the recent past) - and ordering people to do so will not accomplish that.

[doctorwho]

steckdad said:

arch .....I have been lurking here for about a month. first of all I want to commend you on all the investigative work you have done. We all want a safe HS for 204.

but......Based on your posts, stonebridge and cambridge chase are bothered with constant explosions and cancer ridden zombies in their neighborhoods on a daily basis....

I know I stand be roasted by this group, but let the environmental EXPERTS do their jobs...and stop the conspiracy theories and fear mongering.

\\

I agree - let them do their jobs - turn the site over to the IEPA voluntary program and let them actually certify this land is safe ( if they can ) -

Todd DePaul and the SB are not environmental experts

[rural]

doctorwho said:

rural said:

At this point, whether anyone likes it or not, the school is being built there. It's moving forward.

There are no cold feet on MWGEN's part.
They are moving forward.

The SB has no qualms after hearing the professionals' opinions about enviro.
As stated in the paper, they are moving forward.

Nsfoc is an impotent group at this point, unless they can come up with the bond funds for a TRO. The group can do nothing to stop the SB from moving forward.

So, unless SuperArch can somehow negotiate a deal with BB for the school district before the closing with AME/MWGEN, this will be our new school site.

We will have to work TOGETHER as a cohesive group to make sure that the SB and Administration do everything within their power to make sure this site is safe and stays that way.

Do you also have the 6 numbers for Friday's MegaMillions also in your bag of tricks ?

I am glad you have it all worked out - but sorry if I am not buying all of it just yet. This is sort of like Obama's stratgey to just ignore Hillary and try and, move on to the next step well before he's there. Not eeryone in that party is buying that either.

Also I'm hearing that the SB may not be quite as united as the SD Admin on rushing without more info. I know that would blow up your great prophecy here - sorry.

You can try and demand people get in line -- but this is not the anti nsfoc URL - this same stratgey is going to backfire down the line if the SB continues it also- there will be needs for more financing in the future ( no matter how hard they try and postpone the next referendum - ) - good luck with that if this train of thought continues. You'll likely find out who the silent majority is then.

Fair enough, Doc. What do your tea leaves read? How are we going to get out of this situation. I'm all for BB if that's where the SB and Administration are heading.

[rural]

doctorwho said:

Do you also have the 6 numbers for Friday's MegaMillions also in your bag of tricks ?

I do, but I'm not sharing.

[doctorwho]

rural said:

doctorwho said:

Do you also have the 6 numbers for Friday's MegaMillions also in your bag of tricks ?

I am glad you have it all worked out - but sorry if I am not buying all of it just yet. This is sort of like Obama's stratgey to just ignore Hillary and try and, move on to the next step well before he's there. Not eeryone in that party is buying that either.

Also I'm hearing that the SB may not be quite as united as the SD Admin on rushing without more info. I know that would blow up your great prophecy here - sorry.

You can try and demand people get in line -- but this is not the anti nsfoc URL - this same stratgey is going to backfire down the line if the SB continues it also- there will be needs for more financing in the future ( no matter how hard they try and postpone the next referendum - ) - good luck with that if this train of thought continues. You'll likely find out who the silent majority is then.

Fair enough, Doc. What do your tea leaves read? How are we going to get out of this situation. I'm all for BB if that's where the SB and Administration are heading.

I wish my tea leaves weren't so cloudy -- I don't know where this is headed, but I do feel it is far from a slam dunk on anything right now. Too many unknowns across the board.

If they stick with this site and do not turn it over to the IEPA program - but continue to shortcut everything and use the 'trust us' card ( that card expired long ago for most everyone ) - - the potential for real gridlock exists.

I believe there may be other interested parties before this is all over.. a lot of things have happened over the past 24 months that really need some scrutiny IMHO, and who knows may just get it. We have safety unknowns, we have financial unknowns, we have BB lawsuit unknowns, we have nsfoc lawsuit unknowns, we have a timeline to build a shell of a school ( which is a crappy idea on any site) - that is rapidly approaching critical mass - can we afford to double that budget too ? We have an extremely dividied community, and regardless of boasts, there is no majority that anyone can count on - there are x number well versed in what;s going on , on either side of the issues, and a whole lot of apathy. Anyone who counts those apathetic in their 'majority' has a fatally flawed accounting system. There may even be some players who get involvled who are not front and center today --


way too early to make this call - but I would never tell anyone 'this is it' whatever it is -- the sit down and shut up philosophy isn't working so well, and I think those with vision may realize there are long term implications to it also.

[Arch]

wvhsparent said:

archwinsome said:

2 Birds with one stone. Someone already did some math like this.

winsome.cnchost.com/pipeline/Kiefner-Final-Report-06-45.pdf

Heat damage thresholds for a 24inch pipe as well as TNT equivalent chart for various pipe sizes. (Table 3 and also Appendix C)

This was for a compressor station but went into the effects and consequences and safety distances in case of pipeline failure. The PIR for the 24 inch line is 624 feet. The actual math formula is in the document.

Since a 36 inch line carries more gas than a 24 inch line, we can safely assume the PIR for a 36 inch line is greater than 624 feet. Add the fact that there are multiple lines and we have an even greater PIR. Factor in the explosive force of TNT and we can safely say there will be damage to the building and death on the athletic fields in the event of a failure because the building is going to be 200-300 feet from the pipes, according to the school board.

Spontaneous ignition of fiberboard will still happen at 344 feet on a 24 inch gas line. Imagine what that does to any child unfortunate enough to be outside or inside the building facing the lines.

This is what we are buying folks. This is what people want us to build next to.

Excellent read arch......Did you read the report in it's entirety?

Almost all, yes. This was an exercise in the damage assessment written up by 'the experts'. Included in there are the formulas to use when determining safe distances from these infrastructure components in the event of accidents.

What did your calculation work out for distance that MV should be from the pipelines to be considered safe and prevent loss of life and property in the event of an accident.

Please share your math and your conclusions (safe stand-off distance) with the group.

[Arch]

steckdad said:

arch .....I have been lurking here for about a month. first of all I want to commend you on all the investigative work you have done. We all want a safe HS for 204.

but......Based on your posts, stonebridge and cambridge chase are bothered with constant explosions and cancer ridden zombies in their neighborhoods on a daily basis....

I know I stand be roasted by this group, but let the environmental EXPERTS do their jobs...and stop the conspiracy theories and fear mongering.

Nice sensationalism that you added in there that I never said.

I never claimed pipes explode often nor neighborhoods are filled with zombies.

If all you have to add are straw-man arguments, then keep at it. We could all use more humor about now.

[wvhsparent]

archwinsome said:

wvhsparent said:

Excellent read arch......Did you read the report in it's entirety?

Almost all, yes. This was an exercise in the damage assessment written up by 'the experts'. Included in there are the formulas to use when determining safe distances from these infrastructure components in the event of accidents.

What did your calculation work out for distance that MV should be from the pipelines to be considered safe and prevent loss of life and property in the event of an accident.

Please share your math and your conclusions (safe stand-off distance) with the group.

Good, then you read about all the safety systems in place to prevent such events from occurring, even though, as also stated in the report there is such a low probability of such an event from occurring at all.
Again my read was that this pertained to above ground infrastructure, not below ground.
The report actually solidified my comfort level with the site.

[rural]

doctorwho said:

rural said:

Fair enough, Doc. What do your tea leaves read? How are we going to get out of this situation. I'm all for BB if that's where the SB and Administration are heading.

I wish my tea leaves weren't so cloudy -- I don't know where this is headed, but I do feel it is far from a slam dunk on anything right now. Too many unknowns across the board.

If they stick with this site and do not turn it over to the IEPA program - but continue to shortcut everything and use the 'trust us' card ( that card expired long ago for most everyone ) - - the potential for real gridlock exists.

I believe there may be other interested parties before this is all over.. a lot of things have happened over the past 24 months that really need some scrutiny IMHO, and who knows may just get it. We have safety unknowns, we have financial unknowns, we have BB lawsuit unknowns, we have nsfoc lawsuit unknowns, we have a timeline to build a shell of a school ( which is a crappy idea on any site) - that is rapidly approaching critical mass - can we afford to double that budget too ? We have an extremely dividied community, and regardless of boasts, there is no majority that anyone can count on - there are x number well versed in what;s going on , on either side of the issues, and a whole lot of apathy. Anyone who counts those apathetic in their 'majority' has a fatally flawed accounting system. There may even be some players who get involvled who are not front and center today --


way too early to make this call - but I would never tell anyone 'this is it' whatever it is -- the sit down and shut up philosophy isn't working so well, and I think those with vision may realize there are long term implications to it also.

All very good points, Doc. I agree with many of them. I still think this is a train that left the station, and I hope your heroes can catch up with it.

[doctorwho]

rural said:

doctorwho said:

I wish my tea leaves weren't so cloudy -- I don't know where this is headed, but I do feel it is far from a slam dunk on anything right now. Too many unknowns across the board.

If they stick with this site and do not turn it over to the IEPA program - but continue to shortcut everything and use the 'trust us' card ( that card expired long ago for most everyone ) - - the potential for real gridlock exists.

I believe there may be other interested parties before this is all over.. a lot of things have happened over the past 24 months that really need some scrutiny IMHO, and who knows may just get it. We have safety unknowns, we have financial unknowns, we have BB lawsuit unknowns, we have nsfoc lawsuit unknowns, we have a timeline to build a shell of a school ( which is a crappy idea on any site) - that is rapidly approaching critical mass - can we afford to double that budget too ? We have an extremely dividied community, and regardless of boasts, there is no majority that anyone can count on - there are x number well versed in what;s going on , on either side of the issues, and a whole lot of apathy. Anyone who counts those apathetic in their 'majority' has a fatally flawed accounting system. There may even be some players who get involvled who are not front and center today --


way too early to make this call - but I would never tell anyone 'this is it' whatever it is -- the sit down and shut up philosophy isn't working so well, and I think those with vision may realize there are long term implications to it also.

All very good points, Doc. I agree with many of them. I still think this is a train that left the station, and I hope your heroes can catch up with it.

I have no heroes at this point, but I do recognize some villains. A number of people will have the opportunity to recall this train ( there has to be a deadmans brake on this train somewhere ) is my hope -- I believe this site to be a decision that this district will rue long after many people here have left the district.

[Arch]

wvhsparent said:

archwinsome said:

Almost all, yes. This was an exercise in the damage assessment written up by 'the experts'. Included in there are the formulas to use when determining safe distances from these infrastructure components in the event of accidents.

What did your calculation work out for distance that MV should be from the pipelines to be considered safe and prevent loss of life and property in the event of an accident.

Please share your math and your conclusions (safe stand-off distance) with the group.

Good, then you read about all the safety systems in place to prevent such events from occurring, even though, as also stated in the report there is such a low probability of such an event from occurring at all.
Again my read was that this pertained to above ground infrastructure, not below ground.
The report actually solidified my comfort level with the site.

Safety systems are not failsafe. The report itself in general was about a proposed compressor station but the thermal formula and TNT force charts in the event of an exposion were specifically about the pipelines themselves, not the compressor station. Since the compressor station itself holds no fuel but instead simply boosts the pressure of the product in the line (the same product in the lines by MV) it is relevant.

If accidental bad things never happened we would have no need for fire departments, EMS, trauma centers or police. The sad unfortunate part of life is that they do happen and life doesn't always happen in the picture perfect way things always say on paper without deviation. Knowing the consequential damage if something bad were to happen is part of the planing that should go on with any school building. You can hold the opinion that it may never happen there. I too would love to beleive that but that desire does not outweigh nor trump the fact of what damage would occur in the event of an accident.