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Post by gatordog on May 30, 2007 9:39:05 GMT -6
Are you actually trying to assert that unless you're in a club that you can't possibly be good? Want to go play some soccer? I was never in a club. It should be an easy win for you. you can be athletic, talented, determined, but to make a varsity sport in this area--- a hotbed for all kinds of club sports---your odds are long if you dont have club experience. Not impossible...but long odds. (I probably should make exception for football where there is no comparable club system, and maybe basketball?) Drwho has experience...how many WV and NV boys and girls make the volleyball varsity with no club experience? Arch mentioned soccer, how many WV and NV varsity soccer players have no club experience? I dont know the exact answers...but i would be surprised if it was more than a handful. Soccer is great example. It is such a precision sport where about 10 things have to consectutively happen "right" for you team to score a goal. Its not just athleticism and determination....practice and game experience are HUGE factors. And soccer is such a sport that you cant really practice on your own. You wont get better either if you arent playing top competion. Its just the way it is.
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Post by southsidemom on May 30, 2007 9:41:44 GMT -6
We are looking into joining Cress Creek and the golf program for little children is quite extensive. My hat is off to your achievement of a 7 handicap (that is awesome), but to play golf costs out here. My husband's buddy that is a member says the guys are out daily with their sons and daughters as early as age 2. Can't go wrong with that by the age of 15 and ready to try out for high school team. I was a multi sport athlete so hand - eye was good ( and do not play that well today because I cannot afford to play that often ). In season - being on the golf team in HS -( one of the few South Side Chicago Public School teams ) - we played 2 matches a week- they also paid for 2 practice rounds per week and I was able to work enough to play once on the weekend - 5 rounds a week. With costs today I play 10 rounds a year - max. I have taught both my girls to play, they have decent sets, but you're right. They will likely never compete here because they do not have the time to play 5 rounds a week ( nor the $ ) - They can play well enough that in today's world where some business meetings are on the course - the would not embarass themselves. I have been playing for 3 years (summer only) and typically shoot between 102 and 105. Drives are around 180-225 in fairway. I can't imagine the level I would be playing if my parents could have afforded it when I was young. I hear ya' on the cost.....get expensive in a season.
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Post by gatormom on May 30, 2007 9:52:17 GMT -6
My daughter can tumble all she wants in the living room with determination and desire, but without gym time and professional training she just won't be able to keep up... So we here in upper-middle class suburbia have managed to put a price tag on determination and desire. Is this a great country or what!? Looking around the world at state run sports, it really isn't much better. Many of the children who would enjoy participating are not allowed to because either they are not good enough or do not show promise. My son's old gym hosted a Hungarian group of gymnasts, state run school. The school where these boys came from was the Olympic training center for their gymnasts. The kids were either the children of politically important people or extremely talented. You couldn't buy your way into those sports programs if you wanted to.
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Post by Arch on May 30, 2007 9:53:56 GMT -6
If everyone believes that they have to be in a club, the parents will put them in it. If they then later make the varsity team then Voila! It was the club that did it! The whole cause/effect is off the mark, IMO.
A club is just like any other door in life. It's not the only door. Some kids are allowed to walk through them on their own, some have their parents shove them from behind.
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 9:58:11 GMT -6
Are you actually trying to assert that unless you're in a club that you can't possibly be good? Want to go play some soccer? I was never in a club. It should be an easy win for you. I disagreeertion: you can be athletic, talented, determined, but to make a varsity sport in this area--- a hotbed for all kinds of club sports---your odds are long if you dont have club experience. Not impossible...but long odds. (I probably should make exception for football where there is no comparable club system, and maybe basketball?) Drwho has experience...how many WV and NV boys and girls make the volleyball varsity with no club experience? Arch mentioned soccer, how many WV and NV varsity soccer players have no club experience? I dont know the exact answers...but i would be surprised if it was more than a handful. Soccer is great example. It is such a precision sport where about 10 things have to consectutively happen "right" for you team to score a cool. Its not just athleticism and determination....practice and game experience are HUGE factors. And soccer is such a sport that you cant really practice on your own. You wont get better either if you arent playing top competion. Its just the way it is. WV and NV volleyball players ( girls - guys ) - varsity , my guess is no more than a few that are not club players - and no stars and few starters. A few of the ones who are not play club basketball. If you are 6'3" as a girl and athletic they will find a spot for you etc. At some schools, no one non club makes a team. Mother McAuley is a perfect example - Catholic league perennial powerhouse volleyball team - they get over 250 girls trying to make a freshman team - there was a girl there a few years ago - excellent club player and got a full ride to Ohio State- via club ( as almost all Vb scholaships are) - and NEVER made varsity for the Mighty Macs. Anyone who thinks they can make these squads without high level skills is kidding themselves. Naperville North and Central teams even higher % club players - and higher clubs for the most part in VB. Look at Centrals girls basketball team the last few years - Candace and all the other starters played AAU ball together also-- there is a reason they were a cohesive unit - that does not happen in 6 - 8 weeks a year of high school sports ! So the bottom line is it depends which school you are talking about. I'll give you another example -- Middle School. My daughters VB team had 3 club players - when they go back next year 4 more played this year. They are all the starters. Scullen who we lost to last year had 8 club players ( 7th grade) and Lincoln - the 1st place team in 203-204 - all 10 7AA players were club players, and it showed. We were the only team to beat them in 2 years - and did so during the year - then they beat us in 3 in the semi finals. My daughter played soccer from K - 4th grade - and even with being an excellent athelete, she could have made the 7th grade team, but the issue of quality playing time was that it would go to the more skilled players ( and rightfully so ) - High school soccer is dominated by club players - you may make a squad in some schools being a non club player - but are you going to play ahead of the highly skilled nationally ranked kids like DiDernardo - freshman at WVHS - No. Arch, I have stated that a really good 14 - 15 yr old club volleyball team will take apart any high school varsity team without club players, and after being involved in the sport for over 12 years, I guarantee this is true. People see sports like volleyball or soccer sometimes as something one plays in the yard or park - trust me there is a lot more to them. The days of making strong varsity teams and actually playing without club level training - are over in most schools. And the schools that have few/no club players are the ones getting beaten badly year after year. There is one team in the Upstate 8 that I will not name because it is not important who - that when volleyball scores were still to 15 ( non rally scoring) - WVHS team beat them 15 - 0 15 - 0 the first 3 years we were there. In the 4th year the scores were 15 -1 15 -1 and the girls ran laps when they returned because they were scored on. How much fun do you think that was for the other team ? And remember that only freshman year was WVHS ranked....there were far better teams than us the next 3 years. Now those other girls may have been good athletes, but WVHS teams were all club and well trained. you can still make freshman and soph teams being non club - but even that is changing in some sports - and like I mentioned, in some schools that is not even possible any more. This may not be appealing to all, but it is reality.
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 10:11:13 GMT -6
If everyone believes that they have to be in a club, the parents will put them in it. If they then later make the varsity team then Voila! It was the club that did it! The whole cause/effect is off the mark, IMO. A club is just like any other door in life. It's not the only door. Some kids are allowed to walk through them on their own, some have their parents shove them from behind. Arch, respectfully I can tell you skill wise you are incorrect. Go and watch a club sport - especially a playoffs. This past weekend the best volleyball clubs in the country ( and one team from Russia and one from the Dominican Republic) - were at the Great Lakes Center in Aurora. It was a 3 day event and approx 150 college head coaches were there to scout - recruit. These girls were 15 to 18 year old teams. If you watched them, and can tell me that ANY non club volleyball team could stand on the court without getting hurt with them, then I have to respectfully say you are dead wrong. You have the cause and effect misplaced. If you wait until 16 to put someone in club - that ship has sailed - at 16 all the top spots are long gone, to those already nationally ranked and recruited for college. The last week of June the JOV ( Junior Olympic Volleyball) Championships will be in Minneapolis for 6 days. The best clubs in the country in each age bracket will be there - the top say 5% of players -- non club players couldn't play on one of these teams if their life depended on it. You may not believe that, but it is true. And while I agree there are some parents living out their own sports fantasies thru their children- or trying to...... the kids either have the talent or they don't -- by say 15 - you cannto just decide to say I will put my kid in a top club because I want to - their skills are so far behind they don't survive try outs. At 16, the club I can speak to has 350 - 400 girls - the best of the area try out for 40 spots -- a lot of good athletes go elsewhere. They then move to the next club and hope to make it there - and those rosters were full the year before, so you have to be a lot better than returning players. yes, an athletic junior - who has a special skill set ( rare but it happens) and all the physcial attributes to be a star -- i.e. a 6'9" basketball player - etc - they will get more benefoit at try outs and ahve a better chance. Joe average is already out of luck. Also most of your high school coaches are now former club players - club directors - former college athletes - it's not the shop teacher with seniority as it may have been in my day. The new head VB coach at WVHS played for a top local club as well as SMU and finished at North Central. Both the Central and North coach played club ball for the same club and played at Northern Illinois and Western Michigan respectively in college. I am sorry I do not know the background of the NV coach. The assistant coach in middle school played for Northwestern as well as club - Some of the soccer coaches out here played internationally on country teams... the bar has been raised.
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Post by jenrik2714 on May 30, 2007 10:12:47 GMT -6
Dr Who: I know about The Mighty Macs. We used to play against them in the GCAC conference along with Queen of Peace, Maria and Immaculate Heart of Mary. I know that the former coach and her husband ran second city. I know girls from Second City get picked to play for Big Ten and other schools. I know I know I know
I used to play volleyball and softball and I attempted to coach girls softball (both 12 inch and 16 inch) for Wheatland. After experiencing what I experience with Wheatland, I will never coach any children out here. They think they are entitled to things and their parents were royal pains in the butts.
I just don't think club play is fair. High school sports isn't what it used to be.
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 10:19:04 GMT -6
Dr Who: I know about The Mighty Macs. We used to play against them in the GCAC conference along with Queen of Peace, Maria and Immaculate Heart of Mary. I know that the former coach and her husband ran second city. I know girls from Second City get picked to play for Big Ten and other schools. I know I know I know I used to play volleyball and softball and I attempted to coach girls softball (both 12 inch and 16 inch) for Wheatland. After experiencing what I experience with Wheatland, I will never coach any children out here. They think they are entitled to things and their parents were royal pains in the butts. I just don't think club play is fair. High school sports isn't what it used to be. No , high school sports is not what it used to be, no disagreement there, neither is anything else. They have evolved and are a much higher level today...as are athletes in general. That does not make it unfair. The best played before and the best still play today. Yes Nancy an Lars Pedersen raised the bar for girls ahtletics by running 2nd City and coaching McAuley to unprecedented state titles. Good for them ! Because of people like that, and Title IX, girls today have opportunities to be NCAA student athletes that did not exist 20 - 30 years ago. Now that is what I call fair. Would you not see this as increased opportunities for female athletes, and it was driven by club sports. Those girls playing for Northwesterns's now 3 peat LaCrosse NCAA D1 championships would not have had that opportunity 15 years ago -- my youngest is going to a camp at LaCrosse America this summer because she wants to try it because of the championships at NU....in between her NU volleyball camp and WVHS volleyball camp - all great experiences for female athletes. As far as Whealtand, I dislike the use of the broad brush -- as we had many good Wheatland experiences - my youngest played hardball / softball / soccer and basketball there to see what sport she wanted to focus on. Yes, there are some pita parents who want anything, but years ago when I coached little league and pony league in the Gage Park / Marquette Park area, SOME parents were just as much trouble. So I do not see ' out here' as being that much different in some of those entitlements. I remember a parent telling me they paid my salary as a little league coach while in the city, before I had to inform them I was a volunteer as were the other coaches... same attitude.
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Post by momto4 on May 30, 2007 10:23:27 GMT -6
While I know the bar has been raised, is there a place for kids to play sports for the fun of it? I think there might be, but not through school. One daughter decided in middle school she'd like to basketball, but there were way more kids trying out than could make it. It is sad that if you haven't played basketball as a grade schooler you can't decide you're interested in it and give it a try in middle school. I'm not saying this kind of kid needs to be on the competitive team...
How can we know by the time our kids get to kindergarten what sports might interest them? Their skills and interests change over time and what if we try 5 or 6 different sports but it's the 7th that sparks their interest? It's hard to stomach being locked of something because you didn't start early enough.
This is in contrast to certain kids in my family who have gone to small schools where almost every kid has to play almost every sport (far fewer sports available) just so they could field a team.
I have been lucky that my previously non-athletic daughter is on a varsity team at WV because it's a sport that doesn't have many kids playing before they get to HS.
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Post by Arch on May 30, 2007 10:27:36 GMT -6
Arch, I have stated that a really good 14 - 15 yr old club volleyball team will take apart any high school varsity team without club players, and after being involved in the sport for over 12 years, I guarantee this is true. People see sports like volleyball or soccer sometimes as something one plays in the yard or park - trust me there is a lot more to them. Here's the segway that happened. The talk was of individuals being 'good' and they could not be good players unless they were 'club'. That I disagree with. The talk shifted to the functional whole unit of a team and the team's competitiveness against other teams. It's that team-unit cohesion where club (or just playing multiple years together all the time) really pays off. If they have been playing for years on end together, they will learn how each other plays and their on the fly prediction skills with each other (needed for VB and soccer) will be incredible. No question about that. You've pretty much already confirmed that you don't have to be in a club to make each team or be 'good'.
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Post by gatordog on May 30, 2007 10:28:27 GMT -6
Arch, I have stated that a really good 14 - 15 yr old club volleyball team will take apart any high school varsity team without club players, and after being involved in the sport for over 12 years, I guarantee this is true. People see sports like volleyball or soccer sometimes as something one plays in the yard or park - trust me there is a lot more to them. Just for a supporting perspective to demonstate how dominant clubs have become... The class A state soccer playoffs (lower level than the AA that WVHS is playing for) were played in this area. A soccer coach told me "the middle school age club teams from this area would beat some of the downstate HS tournament qualifying teams". Also more data within 204. When I say this area is a "hotbed" for travel sports, its not necessarily even across entire district. One or two 204 MS's have only a handful of travel club players in sports such as volleyball and soccer, whereas they play other 204 MS's where virtually the entire roster is travel club players. You can look at the outcomes and see that its very tough for the team lacking travel players to stay competitive. And its certainly not that the players are any less atheletic or determined...its extra practice and experience.
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 10:31:44 GMT -6
While I know the bar has been raised, is there a place for kids to play sports for the fun of it? I think there might be, but not through school. One daughter decided in middle school she'd like to basketball, but there were way more kids trying out than could make it. It is sad that if you haven't played basketball as a grade schooler you can't decide you're interested in it and give it a try in middle school. I'm not saying this kind of kid needs to be on the competitive team... How can we know by the time our kids get to kindergarten what sports might interest them? Their skills and interests change over time and what if we try 5 or 6 different sports but it's the 7th that sparks their interest? It's hard to stomach being locked of something because you didn't start early enough. This is in contrast to certain kids in my family who have gone to small schools where almost every kid has to play almost every sport (far fewer sports available) just so they could field a team. I have been lucky that my previously non-athletic daughter is on a varsity team at WV because it's a sport that doesn't have many kids playing before they get to HS. To play for fun, the YMCA has sports camps for all ages - would that not be a good alternative. In many cases the people running these camps are college or former college players. ( If you get lucky you will get my daughter who is coaching a few camps this summer thru the Y ) - Waubonsie Valley runs camps ( VB is 2 weeks in the summer ) - and anyone can sign up -- the local colleges here like North Central also have sports camps in the summer - no skill level required to sign up - they separate the kids by talent/skill as they play during the week so that playing fields are level - I also recommend them. there are also different level club teams. I know the club we are at has 9 13 year old teams. the top two travel and compete at a national level, practice 3 days a week / 12 hours plus about 160 games. They also have lower level club teams, no travel, 2 days a week /4 hours practice and play less than 100 games over 6 months - and costs far less ...larger clubs tend to have more teams and levels, and the lower clubs allow for entry....to see if one likes the sport and/or has talent to play it. A lot less pressure to win etc. That is another option.
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Post by Arch on May 30, 2007 10:34:13 GMT -6
While I know the bar has been raised, is there a place for kids to play sports for the fun of it? I think there might be, but not through school. One daughter decided in middle school she'd like to basketball, but there were way more kids trying out than could make it. It is sad that if you haven't played basketball as a grade schooler you can't decide you're interested in it and give it a try in middle school. I'm not saying this kind of kid needs to be on the competitive team... Does your park district offer it?
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 10:38:46 GMT -6
Arch, I have stated that a really good 14 - 15 yr old club volleyball team will take apart any high school varsity team without club players, and after being involved in the sport for over 12 years, I guarantee this is true. People see sports like volleyball or soccer sometimes as something one plays in the yard or park - trust me there is a lot more to them. Just for a supporting perspective to demonstate how dominant clubs have become... The class A state soccer playoffs (lower level than the AA that WVHS is playing for) were played in this area. A soccer coach told me "the middle school age club teams from this area would beat some of the downstate HS tournament qualifying teams". Also more data within 204. When I say this area is a "hotbed" for travel sports, its not necessarily even across entire district. One or two 204 MS's have only a handful of travel club players in sports such as volleyball and soccer, whereas they play other 204 MS's where virtually the entire roster is travel club players. You can look at the outcomes and see that its very tough for the team lacking travel players to stay competitive. And its certainly not that the players are any less atheletic or determined...its extra practice and experience. I can only speak to volleyball at MS since my daughter no longer playing soccer - but yes, the team record was 22 -3 and all 3 losses came at the hands of 2 teams. Lincoln lost 1 match all year, and that was to us. Now also, the coach did play everyone - club players or not all year until the playoffs - and that kept some matches closer, but many of the matches were not close. It is very easy to tell which teams are club loaded and which aren't. When you have someone trying to figure out how to bump a ball over a net, and you have a 4 year club player hitting a VB at 50 MPH at the others - you end up with severe mismatches. There were some matches where the first 2 girls - both good club players - served out the 25 point game before one rotation. And yes, that is the experience and skill level from practice, not necessarily athletic ability in general. I believe soccer is far more loaded in 204 than any other sport, from what I can tell, and that appears to be true for some time now. But I can tell you volleyball and basketball are catching up quickly in the last 10 years since my oldest played in 204 middle school. The club player in BB or VB then was an anomoly, not a norm.
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 10:40:52 GMT -6
While I know the bar has been raised, is there a place for kids to play sports for the fun of it? I think there might be, but not through school. One daughter decided in middle school she'd like to basketball, but there were way more kids trying out than could make it. It is sad that if you haven't played basketball as a grade schooler you can't decide you're interested in it and give it a try in middle school. I'm not saying this kind of kid needs to be on the competitive team... Does your park district offer it? I also know the Y on 95th street has a volleyball league that is far less competitive than club - yet some pretty good players there, and can learn more than basic skills....some of these players are club softball / basketball etc players that cannot dedicate the time to 2 club sports --
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