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Post by movingforward on May 30, 2007 21:22:53 GMT -6
My son will be a freshman in 2009 at MVHS and is a football player currently. Due to the size/safety issue, I agree that football is one sport where playing with their peers (freshman and sophomores) for the first two years is the best approach. I will agree with Harry's post and state that the odds of them making the pro's are not great enough to jeopardize their safety IMO. I do have a friend whose son is (in their eyes) gifted in football. They are concerned/upset about the idea that there will be no varsity football at MVHS and have considered moving because of it. I suppose some families of gifted athletes have to make decisions similar to that at one point or another over the course of their child's athletic 'career'. p.s. I will not be moving .  I have never made a case that pro athlete odds are anything but remote, but college scholarships to really good schools are there for gifted athletes. Again, I was the one who posted the NCAA odds sheet. Each family has to make their own decision. I knew a family that moved from 204 after middle school because they felt the girls basketball programs were not up to their daughters skills. Now I did not agree- but they moved to Hinsdale Central - their daughter was a star player - and played well in college also. So they did what they thought right and it seemed to work for them, so I guess I cannot be critical. Now in most club sports all the scholarships come from club national tournament play and club play itself. Many college head coaches / recruiters may tell you they never attend HS games. I know one 25 + year head volleyball coach who has never seen 1 high school , by his own admission, yet has run 2 different national powerhouse programs at excellent schools and owns 4 national titles.... Football is a different animal however, as high school play and camps at colleges are where most athletes are noticed, so I understand their concern. For most athletes the scholarship part will not be the issue at MV, it is the competitive part. For some of these athletes families, that portion is a 'career' as you state. For some families the scholarship is the difference between going to college or not. For others it may be the difference between a small local college and say Stanford or Duke because of the scholarhips. For a minute portion is this a 'going pro' issue as most sports have no professional outlet at all. For those families with unlimited funds this may not be an issue, but for many it certainly is not one to be dismissed. You bring up a point I had not considered... scholarships. I guess until you walk in someone elses shoes you really don't know what you would do. I suppose if my son in the next two years were to become an amazing football player ,and I thought he might not get exposure at MVHS for recruiters, I might sing a different tune. Just being honest. ( I am not suggesting jeopardizing safety, but rather maybe a move to a different school wouldn't sound so far fetched afterall) |
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 21:24:04 GMT -6
while there are some, no denying it, the vast majority of club athlete parents are ultra supportive ( as I have stated you give up untold hours also all year round) - and I am willing to bet there are no more fanatical parents than there are pushing kids in music / academics or any other endeavor. Sometimes I think this is a picture painted by those who have never been involved in club sports. Also if one was a parent of an athlete, you may come to realize by those who are really driven, no one is pushing them hard - they are pushing themselves to be successful - not exactly a horrible lesson to learn. I suppose it depends on what age kids are put into club sports IMO. I have seen 7 year olds who cannot make play dates because they practice soccer 4 night/week and have weekend tournaments. IMO that is CRAZY! I think club sports are great when a child needs more coaching and has peaked in rec sports. That is how I view the need for club sports. You are right, none of my kids has yet to play Club sports ; until this fall for football. We are a very athletic household and I have seen from my own experiences that when a person possesses athletic ability they don't necessarily have to be in a club sport from age 7 to excel. It's all about the timing IMO. Also, I don't see club sports as being all about winning; They are about obtaining more advanced coaching and a more intense training environment. You are right, that can be an amazing experience for any athlete at the right time. Thank you for clarifying, as that is how I see it also. And while they don't have to be in club sports from age 7, I can tell you one reason why we moved that direction at 8. At 7 years old the Wheatland soccer games were already out of control IMHO. They were extremely physical and being refereed by a 14 year old, who was being brutalized by some moronic parents. We played one team that had a coach screaming for his kids to trip, elbow , knock down players on our team. What was a 14 year old ref going to do. I have an extremely physical younger athlete ( will be playing lacrosse this summer) and she could take care of herself, but this type of out of control behavior I have not experienced in tightly controlled club sports. So in my opinion we were done with Wheatland level sports at that age - the kids were learning nothing else and as they grew larger and more physical -it became more dangerous. Our household is also very competitive, with myself and my oldest having played college sports on scholarship - and with some luck my youngest will follow....so we view most things competitively and do not view missing one thing for something else we like more as any penalty. My kids both had plenty of playtime. My oldest also played piano for 8 years...and played 3 sports. So it is all about choices, and having an opportunity to do the things you like , it is not all about winning at all. |
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Post by harry on May 30, 2007 21:25:28 GMT -6
Harry, I agree with your overall thought process that some should not be pushing kids sooo hard with respect to sports. I think that society is crazy for idolizing sports figures and that they are paid the money they are paid compared to more noble professions...this is my opinion. But, for the kid that is gifted at a sport there is no harm IMO to allow them to play 'up' . We just have to hope that they don't have crazy parents at home!!! ;D while there are some, no denying it, the vast majority of club athlete parents are ultra supportive ( as I have stated you give up untold hours also all year round) - and I am willing to bet there are no more fanatical parents than there are pushing kids in music / academics or any other endeavor. Sometimes I think this is a picture painted by those who have never been involved in club sports. Also if one was a parent of an athlete, you may come to realize by those who are really driven, no one is pushing them hard - they are pushing themselves to be successful - not exactly a horrible lesson to learn. The point of fanaticism is correct. Parents need to raise good kids who will, in turn, raise good kids. This enables their true talents to evolve and shine instead of parents living vicariously thru their children's 'accomplishments'. I, for one, believe that I have a life outside of my childrens' lives and, while I support them in all of their endeavors, I don't believe in pushing any agenda that effects the ENTIRE family's lives all in the name of one person's 'accomplishments', who, in reality, won't be playing for the Bulls or chatting with YO YO MA anytime soon. And, if those individuals are that good, they won't be lost in the shuffle of mediocrity. We parents must instill balance at all costs for all involved. |
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Post by movingforward on May 30, 2007 21:29:44 GMT -6
I suppose it depends on what age kids are put into club sports IMO. I have seen 7 year olds who cannot make play dates because they practice soccer 4 night/week and have weekend tournaments. IMO that is CRAZY! I think club sports are great when a child needs more coaching and has peaked in rec sports. That is how I view the need for club sports. You are right, none of my kids has yet to play Club sports ; until this fall for football. We are a very athletic household and I have seen from my own experiences that when a person possesses athletic ability they don't necessarily have to be in a club sport from age 7 to excel. It's all about the timing IMO. Also, I don't see club sports as being all about winning; They are about obtaining more advanced coaching and a more intense training environment. You are right, that can be an amazing experience for any athlete at the right time. Thank you for clarifying, as that is how I see it also. And while they don't have to be in club sports from age 7, I can tell you one reason why we moved that direction at 8. At 7 years old the Wheatland soccer games were already out of control IMHO. They were extremely physical and being refereed by a 14 year old, who was being brutalized by some moronic parents. We played one team that had a coach screaming for his kids to trip, elbow , knock down players on our team. What was a 14 year old ref going to do. I have an extremely physical younger athlete ( will be playing lacrosse this summer) and she could take care of herself, but this type of out of control behavior I have not experienced in tightly controlled club sports. So in my opinion we were done with Wheatland level sports at that age - the kids were learning nothing else and as they grew larger and more physical -it became more dangerous. Our household is also very competitive, with myself and my oldest having played college sports on scholarship - and with some luck my youngest will follow....so we view most things competitively and do not view missing one thing for something else we like more as any penalty. My kids both had plenty of playtime. My oldest also played piano for 8 years...and played 3 sports. So it is all about choices, and having an opportunity to do the things you like , it is not all about winning at all. Plus , I'm tired of coaching all of the WAA teams my kids are on. Once they know you will coach, they get you every season! ha!  BTW, I was not a coach who encouraged elbowing and knocking down of others! |
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 21:35:58 GMT -6
while there are some, no denying it, the vast majority of club athlete parents are ultra supportive ( as I have stated you give up untold hours also all year round) - and I am willing to bet there are no more fanatical parents than there are pushing kids in music / academics or any other endeavor. Sometimes I think this is a picture painted by those who have never been involved in club sports. Also if one was a parent of an athlete, you may come to realize by those who are really driven, no one is pushing them hard - they are pushing themselves to be successful - not exactly a horrible lesson to learn. The point of fanaticism is correct. Parents need to raise good kids who will, in turn, raise good kids. This enables their true talents to evolve and shine instead of parents living vicariously thru their children's 'accomplishments'. I, for one, believe that I have a life outside of my childrens' lives and, while I support them in all of their endeavors, I don't believe in pushing any agenda that effects the ENTIRE family's lives all in the name of one person's 'accomplishments', who, in reality, won't be playing for the Bulls or chatting with YO YO MA anytime soon. And, if those individuals are that good, they won't be lost in the shuffle of mediocrity. We parents must instill balance at all costs for all involved. You keep commenting on playing professionally. Most student athletes gives a rats behind about that as many are in sports that have no professional outlet. For them it is the competition and playing in college and the experiences that go with it - period. The same small % of adults who are fanatics are living vicariuously thru their kids accomplishments. All the parents I know have lives of their own also - very full ones in business and personal limits - however don't mind sharing a part of their lives with their kids. I traveled internationally about 90% of the time the first 5 years my oldest was on this planet, and missed a heck of a lot. I know what having 'my own life is, and what being able to enjoy my kids lives with them is - I'll opt for the latter. Again, the athletes are driven themselves - they do not need anyone to push them. Did you ever play high level athletics, or have a child who did ? If not, why the damning opinions of those who do ? |
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 21:37:56 GMT -6
Thank you for clarifying, as that is how I see it also. And while they don't have to be in club sports from age 7, I can tell you one reason why we moved that direction at 8. At 7 years old the Wheatland soccer games were already out of control IMHO. They were extremely physical and being refereed by a 14 year old, who was being brutalized by some moronic parents. We played one team that had a coach screaming for his kids to trip, elbow , knock down players on our team. What was a 14 year old ref going to do. I have an extremely physical younger athlete ( will be playing lacrosse this summer) and she could take care of herself, but this type of out of control behavior I have not experienced in tightly controlled club sports. So in my opinion we were done with Wheatland level sports at that age - the kids were learning nothing else and as they grew larger and more physical -it became more dangerous. Our household is also very competitive, with myself and my oldest having played college sports on scholarship - and with some luck my youngest will follow....so we view most things competitively and do not view missing one thing for something else we like more as any penalty. My kids both had plenty of playtime. My oldest also played piano for 8 years...and played 3 sports. So it is all about choices, and having an opportunity to do the things you like , it is not all about winning at all. Plus , I'm tired of coaching all of the WAA teams my kids are on. Once they know you will coach, they get you every season! ha! BTW, I was not a coach who encouraged elbowing and knocking down of others! It was brutal, and we played the same team twice in 2 weeks. Most volunteer coaches do an acceptable job and more, especially for younger age kids...but as the kids get bigger/faster - coaching like this is dangerous |
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Post by harry on May 30, 2007 21:51:30 GMT -6
The point of fanaticism is correct. Parents need to raise good kids who will, in turn, raise good kids. This enables their true talents to evolve and shine instead of parents living vicariously thru their children's 'accomplishments'. I, for one, believe that I have a life outside of my childrens' lives and, while I support them in all of their endeavors, I don't believe in pushing any agenda that effects the ENTIRE family's lives all in the name of one person's 'accomplishments', who, in reality, won't be playing for the Bulls or chatting with YO YO MA anytime soon. And, if those individuals are that good, they won't be lost in the shuffle of mediocrity. We parents must instill balance at all costs for all involved. You keep commenting on playing professionally. Most student athletes gives a rats behind about that as many are in sports that have no professional outlet. For them it is the competition and playing in college and the experiences that go with it - period. The same small % of adults who are fanatics are living vicariuously thru their kids accomplishments. All the parents I know have lives of their own also - very full ones in business and personal limits - however don't mind sharing a part of their lives with their kids. I traveled internationally about 90% of the time the first 5 years my oldest was on this planet, and missed a heck of a lot. I know what having 'my own life is, and what being able to enjoy my kids lives with them is - I'll opt for the latter. Again, the athletes are driven themselves - they do not need anyone to push them. Did you ever play high level athletics, or have a child who did ? If not, why the d**ning opinions of those who do ? Most athletes dreams in today's society is to go pro. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. And with only 2-5% going on to play in college,,,that leaves a good majority of either the parents, the players or both hanging on a wing and a prayer. I don't mean to cast you in a bad light for your sacrifices or donation of countless hours to your kid's cause in lieu of your own life. In the end, it was your choice. But I so know that the majority of the kids are not pulling on their parents sleeves saying "please help me sacrifice my childhood by playing up or club sports or piano. I would much rather do that than grow up being a normal kid with time to wonder." Nope, I don't believe that is the case at all. In the end, it is the parents pushing thier children all in the name of whatever their issue is. |
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Post by doctorwho on May 30, 2007 22:00:14 GMT -6
You keep commenting on playing professionally. Most student athletes gives a rats behind about that as many are in sports that have no professional outlet. For them it is the competition and playing in college and the experiences that go with it - period. The same small % of adults who are fanatics are living vicariuously thru their kids accomplishments. All the parents I know have lives of their own also - very full ones in business and personal limits - however don't mind sharing a part of their lives with their kids. I traveled internationally about 90% of the time the first 5 years my oldest was on this planet, and missed a heck of a lot. I know what having 'my own life is, and what being able to enjoy my kids lives with them is - I'll opt for the latter. Again, the athletes are driven themselves - they do not need anyone to push them. Did you ever play high level athletics, or have a child who did ? If not, why the d**ning opinions of those who do ? Most athletes dreams in today's society is to go pro. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. And with only 2-5% going on to play in college,,,that leaves a good majority of either the parents, the players or both hanging on a wing and a prayer. I don't mean to cast you in a bad light for your sacrifices or donation of countless hours to your kid's cause in lieu of your own life. In the end, it was your choice. But I so know that the majority of the kids are not pulling on their parents sleeves saying "please help me sacrifice my childhood by playing up or club sports or piano. I would much rather do that than grow up being a normal kid with time to wonder." Nope, I don't believe that is the case at all. In the end, it is the parents pushing thier children all in the name of whatever their issue is. by what math do 'most' athletes have the goal to turn pro. You realize that at least half the athletes today are female correct ? How many pro sports outlets do they have ? Short of someone with Candace Parkers skills I would venture to say they are all smart enough to know there is no pro outlet for them after college. So there's at least 50% who already kill the notion of 'most' The girls on Northwestern's 3 peat national champion Women's LaCrosse team, ask them how many are waiting to turn 'pro' - as they get a great education, compete at the top level athletically, and have earned a 3rd trip to the White House for their efforts. Then we have swimmers/ divers / gymnasts - pro's ? Again the pro equation is a minor factor for the vast majority of athletes. So back to the same question, you keep claiming it is the parents pushing them - what experience personally do you have to support this, as I do not see this as the majority behavior by any stretch of the imagination having been involved from both ends. Have I seen a few of the fanatics you mention - sure. They are a small small minority. Loud maybe, but still a minority. |
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Post by movingforward on May 30, 2007 22:07:52 GMT -6
You keep commenting on playing professionally. Most student athletes gives a rats behind about that as many are in sports that have no professional outlet. For them it is the competition and playing in college and the experiences that go with it - period. The same small % of adults who are fanatics are living vicariuously thru their kids accomplishments. All the parents I know have lives of their own also - very full ones in business and personal limits - however don't mind sharing a part of their lives with their kids. I traveled internationally about 90% of the time the first 5 years my oldest was on this planet, and missed a heck of a lot. I know what having 'my own life is, and what being able to enjoy my kids lives with them is - I'll opt for the latter. Again, the athletes are driven themselves - they do not need anyone to push them. Did you ever play high level athletics, or have a child who did ? If not, why the d**ning opinions of those who do ? Most athletes dreams in today's society is to go pro. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. And with only 2-5% going on to play in college,,,that leaves a good majority of either the parents, the players or both hanging on a wing and a prayer. I don't mean to cast you in a bad light for your sacrifices or donation of countless hours to your kid's cause in lieu of your own life. In the end, it was your choice. But I so know that the majority of the kids are not pulling on their parents sleeves saying "please help me sacrifice my childhood by playing up or club sports or piano. I would much rather do that than grow up being a normal kid with time to wonder." Nope, I don't believe that is the case at all. In the end, it is the parents pushing thier children all in the name of whatever their issue is. Ok, I'll be the self-appointed monitor here  I have to disagree that most athletes dream is to go pro. Maybe at the college level there is a large percentage where that is true, but if you include all athletes from children on up, that is not true IMO. (Even at the college level, many athletes use their sport to obtain their education) Participation in sports is for the excitement, motivation, and satisfaction it brings. That applies to any athlete at any age. Sports present a challenge . Having a life without exciting challenges would be boring IMO! Two years ago, my son's friends joined club football. Our son did not want to. We did not insist or push him. Why would we? Now, two years later, he asked us if he could join. We asked why and he gave us his reasons and they all made sense. If someone were to say we pushed him or we were living our dreams through him that would be untrue. The timing was right and he wanted to join. And we as his parents know that the time commitment is acceptable based on other elements of his life , so we said yes. We have no hopes, nor does he, of becoming a professional football player at this point. He just likes to play! Sports needs it's proper place in our society and in our children's lives. If it dominates childrens lives, I agree with Harry that their childhood is somewhat taken away. It's all about timing and what challenges/excites a particular child. I'm done and going to sleep! Good night guys! |
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Post by warriorpride on May 30, 2007 22:23:00 GMT -6
You keep commenting on playing professionally. Most student athletes gives a rats behind about that as many are in sports that have no professional outlet. For them it is the competition and playing in college and the experiences that go with it - period. The same small % of adults who are fanatics are living vicariuously thru their kids accomplishments. All the parents I know have lives of their own also - very full ones in business and personal limits - however don't mind sharing a part of their lives with their kids. I traveled internationally about 90% of the time the first 5 years my oldest was on this planet, and missed a heck of a lot. I know what having 'my own life is, and what being able to enjoy my kids lives with them is - I'll opt for the latter. Again, the athletes are driven themselves - they do not need anyone to push them. Did you ever play high level athletics, or have a child who did ? If not, why the d**ning opinions of those who do ? Most athletes dreams in today's society is to go pro. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. And with only 2-5% going on to play in college,,,that leaves a good majority of either the parents, the players or both hanging on a wing and a prayer. I don't mean to cast you in a bad light for your sacrifices or donation of countless hours to your kid's cause in lieu of your own life. In the end, it was your choice. But I so know that the majority of the kids are not pulling on their parents sleeves saying "please help me sacrifice my childhood by playing up or club sports or piano. I would much rather do that than grow up being a normal kid with time to wonder." Nope, I don't believe that is the case at all. In the end, it is the parents pushing thier children all in the name of whatever their issue is. I think you may be over-generalizing here. Some parents do push their kids too far/hard, but most just support what their kids want to do. And I think that most kids are smart enough to be realistic about playing in the pros at some point, as well. I can't imagine driving 1.5 hours each way to travel team practices, but some parents do it. And, I'm certainly not going to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do with their time or money. To each their own. |
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Post by gatordog on May 31, 2007 7:34:42 GMT -6
I do have a friend whose son is (in their eyes) gifted in football. They are concerned/upset about the idea that there will be no varsity football at MVHS and have considered moving because of it. tell your friend to slow down, not jump to conclusions...MVHS will of course have varsity football! What we are talking about is yes have varsity sports for 2009-10 when MV is freshmen and sophs, with the likely exception of football being only fresh and sophmore teams, during the fall 2009 season. Then MV would have their first varsity football season in fall 2010. |
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Post by wvhsparent on May 31, 2007 9:31:09 GMT -6
So without a varsity team...MVHS should kick some serious butt on the Frosh/Soph level.......
Sounds OK to me....
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Post by doctorwho on May 31, 2007 12:49:26 GMT -6
So without a varsity team...MVHS should kick some serious butt on the Frosh/Soph level....... Sounds OK to me.... assuming like you've read here people with star players do not move to avoid that situation - it does happen. Also remember especially in soccer, many of the best players skip their junior year of high school for full time club because that is the year they get their scholarship offers. And exactly how much fun for the top players to be running roughshod over weaker teams, not much. |
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Post by movingforward on May 31, 2007 14:19:01 GMT -6
So without a varsity team...MVHS should kick some serious butt on the Frosh/Soph level....... Sounds OK to me.... assuming like you've read here people with star players do not move to avoid that situation - it does happen. Also remember especially in soccer, many of the best players skip their junior year of high school for full time club because that is the year they get their scholarship offers. And exactly how much fun for the top players to be running roughshod over weaker teams, not much. Although there may be some families who would move, in reality I don't think it would happen in any significant numbers. Even amazing football players would most likely be 'seen' by recruits somehow/someway in another venue outside of highschool ball; ie: club football! And how amazing at football can a kid really be at age 13/14? We'll have to wait and see. It will all play out and our kids will be fine. How did this all play out when NVHS opened? We lived here then, but my kids were little so I would not have been in that loop. EDIT: I realized kids are 15 or 16 yrs old as fresh and soph. |
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Post by doctorwho on May 31, 2007 15:01:44 GMT -6
assuming like you've read here people with star players do not move to avoid that situation - it does happen. Also remember especially in soccer, many of the best players skip their junior year of high school for full time club because that is the year they get their scholarship offers. And exactly how much fun for the top players to be running roughshod over weaker teams, not much. Although there may be some families who would move, in reality I don't think it would happen in any significant numbers. Even amazing football players would most likely be 'seen' by recruits somehow/someway in another venue outside of highschool ball; ie: club football! And how amazing at football can a kid really be at age 13/14? We'll have to wait and see. It will all play out and our kids will be fine. How did this all play out when NVHS opened? We lived here then, but my kids were little so I would not have been in that loop. In the grand scheme of things you are correct - the numbers will be a very small % of the school population that will move or send their kids to Benet / St' Francis - just those with excpetional athletes would likely consider. |
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